How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

[Thrasha]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Manny Ramirez.

Who was protecting him in the Minnesota lineup?

Manny has established himself as one of the best true hitters in baseball, and scares the living hell out of opposing pitchers. With that kind of a player batting behind you, it'd be hard for an exceptional talent like Ortiz to put up monster numbers.

For the most part it really doesn't make that much of a difference who is hitting behind or in front of you.

[bergie56]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

That was straight from Ortiz's mouth, GBrush did not just pull that out of thin air.

Manny helps, but he's not the sole reason for the success Ortiz has had. Up until last season, and for part of last season, Ortiz hit behind Manny. This is the first full season for the Ortiz 3rd and Manny 4th combo.

The guy is just a good hitter and simply got better. I think staying healthy has helped since it allowed him to get consistent at-bats and gave him a chance to close up his holes.

I have no doubt that the Twins encourage players to hit the other way (maybe too much) but I don't think that they have ever done it so they didn't have to pay their players.

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Ortiz simply needed a change of scenary and he joined the Red Sox at a age where a spike in performance isn't out of the norm.

Having Manny hitting behind him doesn't make much of a difference. There's very little evidence that supports the notion a player improves because he has protection behind him in the batting order.

[MassNole]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Ortiz simply needed a change of scenary and he joined the Red Sox at a age where a spike in performance isn't out of the norm.

Having Manny hitting behind him doesn't make much of a difference. There's very little evidence that supports the notion a player improves because he has protection behind him in the batting order.

Did Jeff Kent hit in front or behind Bonds in San Fran?

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Did Jeff Kent hit in front or behind Bonds in San Fran?

Jeff Kent has hit in front of and behind Bonds.

James Click in Baseball Between The Numbers concludes Protection is over-rated. There's no evidence that having a superior batter behind another batter provides the initial batter with better pitches to hit; if it does, those batters see no improvment in performance as a result.

Having protection is just another one of those baseball myths, much like how some people believe a catchers ability to handle a pitching staff is important.

[stalsy2310]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

I think it was the change in scenery and the players around him. Im sure the winning atmosphere had something to do with it to.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Interestingly, David Ortiz hit behind Manny Ramirez for all of 2003 (in the 5th hole, Garciaparra hit 3rd for all of '03), and for the tail end of 2004 (including the entire playoff run). This was the time frame when he became a monster hitter, so those saying Manny Ramirez is the sole reason are likely off base.

As I said above, I have no evidence that the Twins were economically motivated to change hitters approaches, but look at the evidence. They haven't had any player on their team hit 30 home runs since 1987 (both Kent Hrbek and Tom Brunansky eclipsed that number). Torii Hunter came close in 2002, but he's a CF, not a corner IF/OF masher. Chili Davis had 29 as a DH when they won the World Series in 1991. After that, there really isn't anybody.
The facts do not lie. I don't know if it is an economic or baseball philosophy reason for this, but given Pohlad's notorious cheapness, I think it's a valid question at the very least.

[CMH]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Maybe he just got better.

[BGarrett7]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Surprised no one has mentioned the s-word yet...

[Stu]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

I think it's a combination of several factors, mainly that he has been healthy in Boston. Corrent me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ortiz suffer from 2 broken wrists while he was in Minnesota? Also, the Red Sox allowed him to focus on his strengths rather than try to do something unnatural in hitting the other way.

I think the two most overrated factors are Fenway and Manny protecting him. Fenway isn't a good hitters park for LH pull hitters. The Pesky pole is close but it gets deep real fast beyond that. As for Manny, his protection can prevent other teams from walking Ortiz but anything beyond that who knows. I think the concept of "protection" is vastly overrated when people assume it means a hitter will see better pitches. When Ortiz comes to the plate pitchers aren't thinking "I better throw him strikes so I don't have to face Manny." They're thinking "How the **** do I keep this guy from hitting a homerun?"

[Vince]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

I'll take one example. Vernon Wells. When he has a big masher hitting behind him, he has been superb, 2003(Delgado) and 2006(Glaus). 2005 and 2004 he had mediocre years because he either was playing with an injured Carlos Delgado or didn't at all have a real cleanup hitter protecting him. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are many others. I think it's a key factor IMO.

[deeman11747]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Steroids obviously...

[nyyanksfan20]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

I'll take one example. Vernon Wells. When he has a big masher hitting behind him, he has been superb, 2003(Delgado) and 2006(Glaus). 2005 and 2004 he had mediocre years because he either was playing with an injured Carlos Delgado or didn't at all have a real cleanup hitter protecting him. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are many others. I think it's a key factor IMO.

Look at Beltran too.

[dalnet22]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

Good points.

[Stu]

Re: How did David Ortiz get SO good!?

I'll take one example. Vernon Wells. When he has a big masher hitting behind him, he has been superb, 2003(Delgado) and 2006(Glaus). 2005 and 2004 he had mediocre years because he either was playing with an injured Carlos Delgado or didn't at all have a real cleanup hitter protecting him. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are many others. I think it's a key factor IMO.

And I could find just as many examples that show the opposite, #1 being when Ortiz was hitting behind Manny, thus didn't have anybody "protecting" him but stil produced. The bottom line is, good hitters hit regardless of who's behind them. The only way Manny protects Ortiz is to prevent other teams from walking him every time up.