Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

[SPTO]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

There are criminals, murderers, cheats, rapists, gamblers etc etc. that are enshrined in the HOF. The lack of media coverage gave those players a free pass because they had the numbers. I'm not going to hold today's athlete up against some new, conveniant barometer that is going to make me feel all warm and fuzzy about the people getting into the HOF. Fact of the matter is, professional athletes are some of the biggest a**holes in the world. No need for me or anyone else to pretend like this is a recent trend.

I think you're overstating your case here. There's a difference between breaking the law and doing the time compared to flagrantly cheating in the game and being a total jackass like Bonds has been. The only MLB HOFer I see as being highly questionable on a morals front is Ty Cobb. If you can name some more then i'm willing to listen. I believe Gaylord Perry is in the hall right? Well if he is then that's another guy I have a slight problem with as it's clear as day that he cheated at least 80% of his career.

As for throwing people out of the Hall it's not without precedent the Hockey Hall of Fame has done that with Allan Eagleson and I believe Harold Ballard. Sometimes there needs to be retroactive moves like that. A perfect example is OJ Simpson in Canton. If I were running that HOF i'd have thrown him out long ago but either way i'm sure he's no longer prominently displayed today.

[MassNole]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

True on the Rose part, but it took him 20 years to admit it. Say the day all this starts to break, Bonds admits it. Or he admitted it in Congress, whatever.

While I agree the writers would have wanted him dead and out of the sport, I know myself personally would have viewed him differently. I don't know if it's because he stood up for his faults, I don't know, can't put a finger on it.

But I do think you're right.

I see what you are saying, and I think in the world of public opinion he would have been better off, but in terms of his career that is irrelevant.

There is another reason I am willing to give Bonds more of a break with the media than I would most other players, and that is because of his father. When he grew up, the media wasn't trying to tear down athletes the way they do today, and I would bet he saw or knew of a lot of stuff that would make today's players look like choir boys, and as such he'd rather not deal with the media because of the way have changed over the years. Sure, he could have gone the way of Ken Griffey Jr., but that just wasn't his personality.

[SPTO]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

There is another reason I am willing to give Bonds more of a break with the media than I would most other players, and that is because of his father. When he grew up, the media wasn't trying to tear down athletes the way they do today, and I would bet he saw or knew of a lot of stuff that would make today's players look like choir boys, and as such he'd rather not deal with the media because of the way have changed over the years. Sure, he could have gone the way of Ken Griffey Jr., but that just wasn't his personality.

Actually i've heard that one reason for Bonds' bad behavior when it comes to the media has a LOT to do with his father, not for the reason you state but rather because both Bonds' are very bitter over how Bobby's career went. He was a journeyman ballplayer with some HR power but it seemed (at least from the Bonds' side) that Bobby was never given a fair shot by managers, GMs and the media alike.

It all stems from bitterness and having a chip on his shoulder due to what Barry percieves as the wrongs that baseball comitted against his father.

[MassNole]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

I think you're overstating your case here. There's a difference between breaking the law and doing the time compared to flagrantly cheating in the game and being a total jackass like Bonds has been. The only MLB HOFer I see as being highly questionable on a morals front is Ty Cobb. If you can name some more then i'm willing to listen. I believe Gaylord Perry is in the hall right? Well if he is then that's another guy I have a slight problem with as it's clear as day that he cheated at least 80% of his career.

As for throwing people out of the Hall it's not without precedent the Hockey Hall of Fame has done that with Allan Eagleson and I believe Harold Ballard. Sometimes there needs to be retroactive moves like that. A perfect example is OJ Simpson in Canton. If I were running that HOF i'd have thrown him out long ago but either way i'm sure he's no longer prominently displayed today.

Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Duke Snyder all allegedly bet on baseball and were severe gamblers.

It is interesting you say he cheated, when in fact MLB Rules didn't prohibit steroid use. So yes, what he did was illegal by US Law, but he wasn't a cheater by MLB Law.

You also need to consider the change in the media as I stated in my last post. Up until the late 80's or so, the reporters worshiped the ground the players walked on, and it is widely known they witnessed a lot of stuff that would've ended careers had they reported it, but they turned a blind eye to drug use, alcoholism, and lord only knows what else.

Here is a hypothetical, what if Cal Ripken Jr. used illegally obtained pain killers to play during his streak, which allowed him to take the field when he otherwise could not have done so. Should he strip his record of consecutive games played and remove him from the HOF?

[sroz39]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

...There's a difference between breaking the law and doing the time compared to flagrantly cheating in the game and being a total jackass like Bonds has been...

But Bonds didn't and hasn't broken any rules in his sport. He broke federal law, baseball had no rules against what he was doing. Jackass? Absolutely.

I would love to be able to provide a hundred links that would show that there are players in the HOF that broke the law. Fact of the matter is I can't. There just wasn't enough media coverage back then to make every violation public news. But I'm of the belief that the amount of law violations that occur with today's athlete (does a day go by when you don't hear something anymore?)is on par with back then. Am I speculating? Of course. I just have a difficult time believing players from one and two generations ago were angels and this degenration of morals occured only with today's athlete.

[MassNole]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

Actually i've heard that one reason for Bonds' bad behavior when it comes to the media has a LOT to do with his father, not for the reason you state but rather because both Bonds' are very bitter over how Bobby's career went. He was a journeyman ballplayer with some HR power but it seemed (at least from the Bonds' side) that Bobby was never given a fair shot by managers, GMs and the media alike.

It all stems from bitterness and having a chip on his shoulder due to what Barry percieves as the wrongs that baseball comitted against his father.

I don't have a link for this, but I know I have heard it before. Bobby Bonds was allegedly very big into the Civil Rights movement and was very much better treatment for African-American players who during most of his MLB tenure if not his entire tenure, was a major issue. As such, the predominantly white media did treat him poorly, which I am sure helped mold Barry's attitude towards the media. Just some food for thought when considering why Bonds hates the media, and I would hope we could agree if this is true, that Bonds is more then entitled to hate the still predominantly white media.

[SPTO]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Duke Snyder all allegedly bet on baseball and were severe gamblers.

Hmm I didn't know they bet on baseball? I know Mays was involved in gambling problems, in fact I believe after his career for a short time he was a spokesman for a major casino. I know the media covered a lot of stuff up in the glory years but I think that was for the good of the game. A LOT of things were sanitized back then, even coverage of politics and world events. Also keep in mind that while some of those players had major problems they didn't shirk their responsibilities to the fans.

It is interesting you say he cheated, when in fact MLB Rules didn't prohibit steroid use. So yes, what he did was illegal by US Law, but he wasn't a cheater by MLB Law.

Actually as early as 1989 then commish Fay Vincent had meetings and an investigation on performing enhancing drugs. Apparently they didn't feel the need to prosecute anything but it was already at that time deemed undesirable. Your argument is also quite weak in that you're going to allow illegal activity just because it isn't explicitly forbidden in the rule books. That's like saying a hockey player can slug another player close to death and not go to jail because it was only "fighting" and he didn't know he was actually killing the other guy. (extreme I know but that's how I feel)

Here is a hypothetical, what if Cal Ripken Jr. used illegally obtained pain killers to play during his streak, which allowed him to take the field when he otherwise could not have done so. Should he strip his record of consecutive games played and remove him from the HOF?

Even if he did take pain killers it does nothing to enhance his game but rather blocks out pain enough for him to take the field. That's totally different from taking something that EXPLICITLY gives you more energy and faster reaction time such as Roids and amphetamines besides, even if Ripken's streak is a little shady due to that he still has enough merit to be a HOFer. Last I checked painkillers don't allow someone to hit 500 ft HRs.

[BGarrett7]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

some might say a shot of whiskey before a game is performance enhancing, steady the nerves, last i saw mickey was in the hall, lol.

But is a shot of whiskey illegal? Not if you are over the age of 21.

[sroz39]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

... That's like saying a hockey player can slug another player close to death and not go to jail because it was only "fighting" and he didn't know he was actually killing the other guy. (extreme I know but that's how I feel)...

Hockey's a bad example because there have been a few incidents that went unscathed by the law that would have been illegal to do outside of hockey. Bertuzzi and Mcsorley incidents come to mind. I know Bertuzzi will probably be found guilty in a civil suit, but he went criminally unscathed for an act that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere outside of a hockey arena.

[GeePee20]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

People will never forgive Bonds. He could have admitted it 3 years ago and it would not change a thing. People hate him too much, especially the media.

And there is no way he took roids before 98. Amphetamines are highly possible but not roids. Not only are the physical gains clear after 98, but all the evidence in Game of Shadows points to him starting use around 98. He was jealous of all the attention McGwire and Sosa got so he wanted to match up with them.

Hmmm.... I've never heard/read that before.

Everything I've searched for is showing the exact opposite. It's possible, but not probable IMO.

http://legalball.com/MLB_News_2005_Steroids_Policy

The juiced era of baseball will always exist in the minds of the
fans. But like all other controversies it will fade from importance
in the same way we forgot about Ty Cobb beating up a
handicapped fan in the stand about 100 years before Ron Artest
followed his lead, in the way we forgot about Babe Ruth using
cork, Hank Aaron using amphetamines, Pete Rose gambling, and
Rolly Fingers scuffing a ball.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6642822/

What Bonds and these others did was deeply rooted in the game. Pete Rose and most players of his generation couldn’t take batting practice without first downing a handful of “greenies” — amphetamines. Willie Mays kept a bottle of “red juice” in his locker — the same stuff as greenies, but in a liquid form. We can’t say Hank Aaron was clean, because we don’t know what stimulants he took, if any. We can’t vouch for anyone’s purity.

There is certainly a lot more evidence against Bonds and steroids but amphetamines were a staple in clubhouses back in Aaron's days. Most players used them without even thinking about their legality. It was just the normal thing to do. This doesn't completely incriminate Aaron but it does not look good whatsoever.

[MassNole]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

Hmm I didn't know they bet on baseball? I know Mays was involved in gambling problems, in fact I believe after his career for a short time he was a spokesman for a major casino. I know the media covered a lot of stuff up in the glory years but I think that was for the good of the game. A LOT of things were sanitized back then, even coverage of politics and world events. Also keep in mind that while some of those players had major problems they didn't shirk their responsibilities to the fans.

As I said, the media let it go, and as you said a lot was sanitized, such as drug/alcohol use, fights, rapes, etc.

Actually as early as 1989 then commish Fay Vincent had meetings and an investigation on performing enhancing drugs. Apparently they didn't feel the need to prosecute anything but it was already at that time deemed undesirable. Your argument is also quite weak in that you're going to allow illegal activity just because it isn't explicitly forbidden in the rule books. That's like saying a hockey player can slug another player close to death and not go to jail because it was only "fighting" and he didn't know he was actually killing the other guy. (extreme I know but that's how I feel)

Bad example with the hockey fighting as it pertains to US Law, but that is neither here nor there.

Even if he did take pain killers it does nothing to enhance his game but rather blocks out pain enough for him to take the field. That's totally different from taking something that EXPLICITLY gives you more energy and faster reaction time such as Roids and amphetamines besides, even if Ripken's streak is a little shady due to that he still has enough merit to be a HOFer. Last I checked painkillers don't allow someone to hit 500 ft HRs.

But the pain killers could allow him to take the field when he otherwise couldn't, which would aid him in breaking Gehrig's record. So as such, he is receiving a benefit of playing, which is no different. In both cases players are using illegally obtained substances to perform. There sadly is no difference at the end of the day. Neither were banned by MLB, so as such they weren't breaking any rules of the game.

Oh and if you don't think the record mattered, if you look at their careers, statistically Ripken wasn't that different from Bobby Bonds, their yearly averages are remarkably close. And honestly, Ripken's stats are on par with players not in the HOF (See Andre Dawson for a helluva an example). So yeah, I'd say if he took drugs he illegally obtained by US law to keep playing, then he can't be differentiated from Bonds on any other factor but overall likability.

[SPTO]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

Good counterpoint on Ripken still you have to also factor in the fact that he was the first big man to play SS.

Anywho it's nice to have an argument/debate without namecalling and what not. I'll find it hard for anyone to make me change my mind on Bonds but at least it's good to throw opinions around.

[dl2518]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

The Hall of Fame should be for what you've accomplished on the Baseball Field, not how good of a guy you are or whatever. IMO, Pete Rose should be in and certainly Bonds should be a shoe in!

[BGarrett7]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

The Hall of Fame should be for what you've accomplished on the Baseball Field ...

You honestly believe that, even if it was done so with assistance of illegal performance enhancers?

[Scottdau]

Re: Breaking News: Bonds failed drug test

And steroids have been in the game since the 80's. What's your point?

Anyhow, this is a major blow to Bonds if true. He can kiss is already dying hopes of the Hall of Fame good-bye with the results of his test.

It isn't that bad. A lot of players take them. But I will say one thing SD Chargers fans have no room to talk about players on steroids! lol. Cough Cough Merriman! lmao