Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

The w/RISP numbers just reinforce your original point anyway. Hamilton gets a ridiculous number of opportunities compared to Dunn.

Hamilton has had 32% more plate appearances with runners on, and 28% more plate appearances with RISP.

And not surprisingly, he has roughly 31% more RBI on the season than Dunn does (108 to 74).

Yes I agree that his point was on target. But it was only on target because I chose to compare stats between Hamilton and Dunn. With Hamilton having that many more opportunities to hit a player in than Dunn, then it is logical he would have more RBI's.

BUT..the point of the debate was not about how many RBI's Hamilton had over Dunn. It was about Dunn's ability, or lack thereof, to be successful at getting players in.

If you guys would stop arguing over something that is no longer being debated (whether or not Dunn is valuable), then you would see the debate. I will go over it one more time since most of you keep ignoring it.

agonytheclown said,

"Dunn has power, and that's it. For all the homeruns and RBI's he knocks in, I don't remember the last time I saw a slugger with such a poor RISP stat. His HR-RBI ratio has to be a historical low. And the guy is a loser mentality. Maybe having his buddy Junior gone will put his back against the wall."

to which Sandman42 responded:

"Dunn's OPS w/ RISP:

2005 - 1.042
2006 - .923
2007 - .814
2008 - .967

Try again."

to which I argued that OPS w/RISP for Dunn is skewed because his OBP is so high. I said he isn't great at getting runners in. I agreed that he is good at keeping an inning alive, but he is not great at hitting a runner in.

Coug00 showed us a metric that proves exactly that.

Now if you can debate this fact, without bringing in the fact that Dunn is valuable (because I am not debating that), then I give you the floor.

Can someone, anyone show me that I am wrong that Dunn is not great at hitting players in that are in scoring position?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hurray knowledge!!

You aren't bad when you are just responding with your opinion or facts, but it is comments like this that make you seem like a jerk.

Is there any reason you feel the necessity to respond like this at times? I mean isn't this just a thread with a good conversation/debate going? Why do you have to be condescending in the process?

My guess is you won't answer this question. You will likely respond that Dunn is a very valuable player.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

You aren't bad when you are just responding with your opinion or facts, but it is comments like this that make you seem like a jerk.

Is there any reason you feel the necessity to respond like this at times? I mean isn't this just a thread with a good conversation/debate going? Why do you have to be condescending in the process?

My guess is you won't answer this question. You will likely respond that Dunn is a very valuable player.

That is a common reply across the internets when someone makes a post making a good point. I like to use various memes that I sometimes forget not everyone has been exposed to.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Yes I agree that his point was on target. But it was only on target because I chose to compare stats between Hamilton and Dunn. With Hamilton having that many more opportunities to hit a player in than Dunn, then it is logical he would have more RBI's.

BUT..the point of the debate was not about how many RBI's Hamilton had over Dunn. It was about Dunn's ability, or lack thereof, to be successful at getting players in.

If you guys would stop arguing over something that is no longer being debated (whether or not Dunn is valuable), then you would see the debate. I will go over it one more time since most of you keep ignoring it.

agonytheclown said,

"Dunn has power, and that's it. For all the homeruns and RBI's he knocks in, I don't remember the last time I saw a slugger with such a poor RISP stat. His HR-RBI ratio has to be a historical low. And the guy is a loser mentality. Maybe having his buddy Junior gone will put his back against the wall."

to which Sandman42 responded:

"Dunn's OPS w/ RISP:

2005 - 1.042
2006 - .923
2007 - .814
2008 - .967

Try again."

to which I argued that OPS w/RISP for Dunn is skewed because his OBP is so high. I said he isn't great at getting runners in. I agreed that he is good at keeping an inning alive, but he is not great at hitting a runner in.

Coug00 showed us a metric that proves exactly that.

Now if you can debate this fact, without bringing in the fact that Dunn is valuable (because I am not debating that), then I give you the floor.

Can someone, anyone show me that I am wrong that Dunn is not great at hitting players in that are in scoring position?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
<!-- / message --><!-- Google Postbit Ads for Guests Only -->

I guess all that I can say is that if he wanted to he could swing at more pitches, get more hits with risp and have more rbis at the expense of OBP and thus OPS, and OPS has been shown to have the best correlation to total runs scored among basic stats. Thus, except for very rare and unusual instances, it is best to look at OPS in certain situations to determine if a player is a "good" hitter in those situations. Its not that he isnt good at driving in runs himself, its that he chooses not to break away from his strengths and to keep playing his best game because thats in the best interest of the team.

[DrJones]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

His HR-RBI ratio has to be a historical low.

Actually, off the top of my head, I can think of a dude who had an even worse HR/RBI ratio than Dunn.

Barry Bonds, 2001: 73 HR, 137 RBI

Less than 2 RBI per HR? This guy sucks!

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Actually, off the top of my head, I can think of a dude who had an even worse HR/RBI ratio than Dunn.

Barry Bonds, 2001: 73 HR, 137 RBI

Less than 2 RBI per HR? This guy sucks!

Please realize I was quoting someone else.

Also lets not bring a cheater into the conversation.

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

That is a common reply across the internets when someone makes a post making a good point. I like to use various memes that I sometimes forget not everyone has been exposed to.

Hurray knowledge!! is NOT a common term used on the internet. It was something you said with a condescending tone as you have done before with me and you know it.

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

I guess all that I can say is that if he wanted to he could swing at more pitches, get more hits with risp and have more rbis at the expense of OBP and thus OPS, and OPS has been shown to have the best correlation to total runs scored among basic stats. Thus, except for very rare and unusual instances, it is best to look at OPS in certain situations to determine if a player is a "good" hitter in those situations. Its not that he isnt good at driving in runs himself, its that he chooses not to break away from his strengths and to keep playing his best game because thats in the best interest of the team.

ok that is a completely flawed logic. When Dunn comes to the plate, like every other player in the league, and there are people on base his job is to try and get those runners home. Dunn does not go up there and think "let me play to my strength and just walk." No he goes up there trying to hit the ball and if he doesn't like a pitch or doesn't put a good pitch in play, he may work out a walk as a side effect. But when Dunn does swing and try and hit the ball and actually puts the ball in play, he is bad at it when there are RISP. Please try and debate this fact. If you can't then either start a new topic or stay out of debate.

Please stop trying to twist everything I say to your benefit of the argument. I have said time and time again that I agree that Dunn is valuable and that it isn't my debate. I have said in at least two or three posts exactly what my point was and you keep trying to spin it. Not sure why? Maybe you aren';t great at comprehending, I truly don't know.

I suggest if you can't read what I am posting and reply to the subject at hand, then maybe you shouldn't post at all in this thread.

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

I guess all that I can say is that if he wanted to he could swing at more pitches, get more hits with risp and have more rbis at the expense of OBP and thus OPS, and OPS has been shown to have the best correlation to total runs scored among basic stats. Thus, except for very rare and unusual instances, it is best to look at OPS in certain situations to determine if a player is a "good" hitter in those situations. Its not that he isnt good at driving in runs himself, its that he chooses not to break away from his strengths and to keep playing his best game because thats in the best interest of the team.

Also, and I have no idea why I am explaining this for the third or fourth time (maybe I just feel sorry for you), but what I pointed out before is that his OPS with RISP is flawed because of his high OBP. Sure he can walk and keep an inning going, but when he tries to bring the guy home with a hit, he doesn't do it very well. Any chance you understood this time?

[DrJones]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Please realize I was quoting someone else.

Also lets not bring a cheater into the conversation.

I know it wasn't yours. I was just having fun with that quote.

Also, sadly, I'm guessing that there have been several cheaters already mentioned in this conversation.

[PhantomPain]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

I know it wasn't yours. I was just having fun with that quote.

Also, sadly, I'm guessing that there have been several cheaters already mentioned in this conversation.

Ok cool, wasn't sure if you realized or not. But yeah you are right, there probably have already been a few mentioned. If Dunn weren't the size of the Jolly Green Giant, he would have probably cheated as well.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Hurray knowledge!! is NOT a common term used on the internet. It was something you said with a condescending tone as you have done before with me and you know it.

um, yes it is. At least on the other boards that I frequent and I tend to bring that stuff over here.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

Also, and I have no idea why I am explaining this for the third or fourth time (maybe I just feel sorry for you), but what I pointed out before is that his OPS with RISP is flawed because of his high OBP. Sure he can walk and keep an inning going, but when he tries to bring the guy home with a hit, he doesn't do it very well. Any chance you understood this time?

What's happening is you keep trying to argue a point that has no effect on his value as a baseball player so theres nothing of meaning to respond to. The type of statistics you are looking at in specific situations have as much relevance to how good of a baseball player he is as his credit score or chess rating, and this is a thread about how good of a baseball player he is.

Youre right in saying that having a high OBP with RISP means he isn't driving in those runs himself as often as someone with a high average would. Still, this year he has a higher OBP, SLG, and average if you care about that with RISP than overall for the season. He is a good offensive player overall and has even better numbers with RISP, so why would he be considered bad with RISP?

[sportsdude]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

ok that is a completely flawed logic. When Dunn comes to the plate, like every other player in the league, and there are people on base his job is to try and get those runners home. Dunn does not go up there and think "let me play to my strength and just walk." No he goes up there trying to hit the ball and if he doesn't like a pitch or doesn't put a good pitch in play, he may work out a walk as a side effect. But when Dunn does swing and try and hit the ball and actually puts the ball in play, he is bad at it when there are RISP. Please try and debate this fact. If you can't then either start a new topic or stay out of debate.

I would counter that Dunn's job is not to get out. Sure a two-run single is great, but a GIDP is worse. I'd love to have Dunn knock in runners every time he's at bat and there's guys on base but that's just not realistic. If he can extend the inning, sometimes that's all you need. EE gets a lot of flack but he's not a shabby hitter either. Not great, but not terrible. If Dunn can extend the inning and give EE a chance to bat that's a lot better than a GIDP or a strikeout.

and for what it's worth, I don't think dk is in here trying to pick a fight with you, Phantom. He's been much more civil in here than he has in some other threads. Not trying to take a shot at ya dk, but all those times you've been in the cell speak for themselves.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Thoughts On Adam Dunn?

I would counter that Dunn's job is not to get out.

I would say this is the job of all players at the plate.

and for what it's worth, I don't think dk is in here trying to pick a fight with you, Phantom. He's been much more civil in here than he has in some other threads. Not trying to take a shot at ya dk, but all those times you've been in the cell speak for themselves.

Im not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I see what hes trying to say and hes right to an extent, but it is nitpicking and contrary to the big idea. Its a lot like saying that a low batting average means you are a bad "hitter" by literal definition of the word but you could still be good at "batting" if its countered with high OBP/SLG.