NL GG Announced

[elTodd]

Re: NL GG Announced

I cant tell if this is second level sarcasm or just cluelessness. The fact that you used a play from an exhibition game leads me to the first since no one can seriously use that as justification, but on the other hand the tone sounds very much like basic sarcasm.

Any opinions from the gallery?

I'm not really sure either dk. I'm leaning more towards the former, but who knows. Well I guess Blzer does.

[mjb2124]

Re: NL GG Announced

As a Pirates fan, I'm surprised Nate won a GG as well. He's a good CF'er, but GG caliber? I don't think so.

I don't blame anyone from thinking his ASG play was the best play he made all year or that's all he did for the Pirates. Heck, the Pirates don't get any national coverage so I doubt many got to see him play.

[elTodd]

Re: NL GG Announced

As a Pirates fan, I'm surprised Nate won a GG as well. He's a good CF'er, but GG caliber? I don't think so.

I don't blame anyone from thinking his ASG play was the best play he made all year or that's all he did for the Pirates. Heck, the Pirates don't get any national coverage so I doubt many got to see him play.

As a Cardinals fan I got to see him play quite a bit. I think he is one hell of a ball player and is probably one of the best overall outfielders in the game, or will be in a very short time. But, as you said, I don't necessarily think he should have gotten the Gold Glove.

[CMH]

Re: NL GG Announced

Michael Young?

This award needs to be abolished. From now on, I'm not even reading the Gold Glove articles.

I don't care who wins.

[Sandman42]

Re: NL GG Announced

McLouth might be the worst pick in the history of the GG. Going by +/- he was rated as the worst CF in the game.

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/2008-plus-minus-leaders.asp

[mjb2124]

Re: NL GG Announced

I didn't realize Nate McLouth had 1 error all year. That's why he won it.

I know there are other stats, but most voting on the award don't look any further than FPCT and errors.

[mjb2124]

Re: NL GG Announced

McLouth might be the worst pick in the history of the GG. Going by +/- he was rated as the worst CF in the game.

http://www.billjamesonline.net/field...us-leaders.asp

That award goes to Rafael Palmiero who played only a handful of games at 1B the one season he won a GG. He DH'd the rest of the year.

I don't know anything about +/-. Care to elaborate? I find it kind of hard to believe McLouth was that terrible in the outfield. I've watched him all year and he was pretty darn good IMO (not GG caliber, but good). I also think this is why no single fielding stat really tells the entire story. A combo of stats is needed - and a combo still wouldn't merit a GG to Nate.

[Sandman42]

Re: NL GG Announced

That award goes to Rafael Palmiero who played only a handful of games at 1B the one season he won a GG. He DH'd the rest of the year.

I don't know anything about +/-. Care to elaborate? I find it kind of hard to believe McLouth was that terrible in the outfield. I've watched him all year and he was pretty darn good IMO (not GG caliber, but good). I also think this is why no single fielding stat really tells the entire story. A combo of stats is needed - and a combo still wouldn't merit a GG to Nate.

Yeah, Palmeiro probably does take the cake as the worst pick. I think he played less than 20 games at 1B all year.

As for +/- it just measures how many plays a player makes compared to the average fielder. Here's a better explanation from their site:

My book, The Fielding Bible, goes into great length (ad nauseum to some) describing the new fielding system we developed at Baseball Info Solutions, the Plus/Minus System. Video Scouts at BIS review video of every play of every major league game and record detailed information on each play, such as the location of each batted ball, the speed, the type of hit, etc. Using this in-depth data, we’re able to figure out how each player compares to his peers at his position. How often does Derek Jeter field that softly batted ball located 20 feet to the right of the normal shortstop position, for example, compared to all other major league shortstops?

A player gets credit (a "plus" number) if he makes a play that at least one other player at his position missed during the season, and he loses credit (a "minus" number) if he misses a play that at least one player made. The size of the credit is directly related to how often players make the play. Each play is looked at individually, and a score is given for each play. Sum up all the plays for each player at his position and you get his total plus/minus for the season. A total plus/minus score near zero means the player is average. A score above zero is above average and a negative score is below average. Adam Everett turned in the highest score we’ve had in four years of using the system with a +43 at shortstop in 2006. That means he made 43 more plays than the average MLB shortstop would make.

Also I agree that more than one fielding metric is needed because none are that reliable. I know on some of them like +/- rate Ichiro as a great fielder, while others like UZR rate him near the bottom.

[mjb2124]

Re: NL GG Announced

Thanks for the explanation. I hate to say it, but that's the first time I've heard of +/- being used in baseball.

[Blzer]

Re: NL GG Announced

Ya cause one instance in a game that "Counts" is deserving of a GG.

Not only that, that was one of the worst arms I have seen in a long time. That was definitely a much worse throw than Bonds gave when Bream scored.

I didn't realize Nate McLouth had 1 error all year. That's why he won it.

I know there are other stats, but most voting on the award don't look any further than FPCT and errors.

It's kind of hard to get an error in the outfield. Keep the ball in front of you, and do your best on throws. Only if you aren't wearing a glove or if you completely botch a throw that absolutely nobody can back up where baserunners advance from it are you charged with an error. Otherwise, if a runner goes from first to second and you simply didn't give it the best throw, they get a double and you are clean.

[Blzer]

Re: NL GG Announced

I cant tell if this is second level sarcasm or just cluelessness. The fact that you used a play from an exhibition game leads me to the first since no one can seriously use that as justification, but on the other hand the tone sounds very much like basic sarcasm.

Any opinions from the gallery?

My bad, there was no sarcasm. I really meant that is a joke. After seeing the guy's throw (the runner was safe regardless, BTW), McLouth simply has no arm. I have a better arm than him, and that's not saying much.

I understand that a "gold glove" sounds like a person that can catch the ball well, but it really means overall best defensive performer, and if he can't ever get the ball in from an outfield corner so a runner on first doesn't score, he's not worthy of this.

Again, Bonds may not have the best arm, but the days he won the gold glove, he was still able to throw out runners very well. He targeted his spots perfectly and had one of the quickest outfield transfers in the game, it was completely seamless. Then of course, his glove.


Plus, I wasn't using it as an example or not, I was making sure we were talking about the same person. When it comes to the Pirates, my memory gets kind of fuzzy.

[dkgojackets]

Re: NL GG Announced

Oh wait, so it was a horrible throw in the all-star game he made? I didnt watch that but it sounded like he gunned someone down and people thought he was awesome because of it.

I get what you are saying now. We are on the same page.

And youre right that its hard to make errors in the outfield, especially if you have no range and just make all the routine plays and use some basic thinking.

[Blzer]

Re: NL GG Announced

Nuh uh. If I recall correctly, it was a shallow fly ball in center field and his throw didn't even beat the runner, though the umpire called him out anyway. I can't find a video for it though, but it was a very bad throw (albeit on target). Maybe it was just a bad throw by him overall, like he normally throws it harder... but after seeing that, it just showed that he simply has one of the worst outfield arms in baseball.

At least I didn't base Dan Uggla on one game though, because he would be really low in my book if the ASG was all I based him on. I suppose I should see more throws by McLouth before making a decision as to how he can really throw, but I think it should be an important asset to winning a gold glove. I know he can catch a ball, but he misjudges balls on his first step often as well.

[Stroehms]

Re: NL GG Announced

Nuh uh. If I recall correctly, it was a shallow fly ball in center field and his throw didn't even beat the runner, though the umpire called him out anyway. I can't find a video for it though, but it was a very bad throw (albeit on target). Maybe it was just a bad throw by him overall, like he normally throws it harder... but after seeing that, it just showed that he simply has one of the worst outfield arms in baseball.

At least I didn't base Dan Uggla on one game though, because he would be really low in my book if the ASG was all I based him on. I suppose I should see more throws by McLouth before making a decision as to how he can really throw, but I think it should be an important asset to winning a gold glove. I know he can catch a ball, but he misjudges balls on his first step often as well.

To his credit though, he plays CF. A tough place to judge the ball directly off the bat, especially if straight at you. I don't mind him winning. The Pittsburgh Pirates need a bright spot amd I think he's it. He kinda downplays the blow they took by shipping Bay out.

[Blzer]

Re: NL GG Announced

To his credit though, he plays CF. A tough place to judge the ball directly off the bat, especially if straight at you. I don't mind him winning. The Pittsburgh Pirates need a bright spot amd I think he's it. He kinda downplays the blow they took by shipping Bay out.

Meh, again, I don't consider myself some hot shot, but I don't find it hard to play center field at all. If anything, you can "hear" how far the ball is going to go off the crack of the bat.

He's a great offensive performer, though.