Is all cheating the same?

[MBMavs20]

I was reading some of the threads, and I noticed people talking about how cheating is cheating. Well, if that's the case, Baseball is in a lot of trouble.

I love the Politically Correct Media that forces athletes to do the "I'm Sorry" dance, saying how they are so sorry they tried Steroids. What about the Integrity of the game? Well..

Whitey Ford cheated. He would scuff the ball with his ring, and if the ump was watching, he would have Elston Howard scuff the ball using his shin guard.

Norm Cash hit .361 back in 1961, then admitted years later he used a corked bat the whole year.

Hell, you could throw a spitball legally until 1920, and then baseball decided to let the pitchers who threw the spitball continue until they retired.

Baseball has a long history of players "cheating" in order to get the advantage over their opponent.

However, how much has steroids helped the players who took them? Did you read the players in the Mitchell report? Larry Bigbie, Tim Laker, Randy Verlarde, Chris Donnels.. the list goes on and on. Why didn't steroids help these players? Nobody is outraged that these players took steroids. Only when a record is broken is the public shocked and outraged.

If Bonds didn't break the single season and career record for home runs, would steroids be such a big issue? Last time I checked, wins and losses were more important then if a player hit 40 hrs in a season.

Sammy Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Mo Vaughn, and Ken Caminiti all used the juice, and won a total of ZERO rings.

Steroids has left a black eye on Baseball, but it will survive, just like it has every other scandal since it started back in 1869. You want to blame someone? Blame Bud Selig, the Owners, and the Players Association. They chose profits over Integrity. I don't buy it for a second that they had no idea steroids was a problem in Baseball.

Let the debate begin. Please keep it civil, this is just my opinion.

[Brandon13]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

However, how much has steroids helped the players who took them? Did you read the players in the Mitchell report? Larry Bigbie, Tim Laker, Randy Verlarde, Chris Donnels.. the list goes on and on. Why didn't steroids help these players? Nobody is outraged that these players took steroids.

Who's to say steroids didn't help those players? Maybe they don't ever make it to the majors or stay in the majors very long without 'roids.

[MBMavs20]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

As far as Baseball goes, it didn't help those players at all?

Could it have helped them in other ways? I guess so, if they wanted to increase their bench press, or look better in the mirror.

Steroids only helps baseball players if they have talent to begin with. I'm 36, and it's not like I could start juicing tomorrow and hit a 90 mph fastball.

Saddest thing about steroids is that the players who benefited the most (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, A-Rod etc..) were already great hitters to begin with. It wasn't like Randy Verlarde took roids and all of a sudden hit 40 bombs. So they hit a dozen more home runs each season. Was it really worth it? I was a huge McGwire fan growing up. I would not have thought any less of him if he didn't hit 70 hrs in 1998, or if he "only" hit 475 homers instead of 583.

If you cheat on your taxes, and get $1500 back instead of $1000, would you feel guilty? I will tell you this, I don't think you would get caught. That's what the Bigbie's and Verlarde's were probably thinking. I am small fish in a big pond.

I don't cheat on my taxes, and I don't excuse taking steroids, but I can see why these players were tempted to take them. Most of them had to, or else someone else would have, and taken their job away from them. It's easy to play arm chair QB, until you are faced with the same decision.

Sean Casey said it best yesterday on MLB Network when Al Leiter asked him why he never tried Steroids. Casey said "he thought it was wrong." Well, Casey was a good hitter, and his numbers clearly show he never juiced (130 hr's in 12 seasons).

However, some people may look at that and say if Casey did juice, he might still be playing. To each their own I guess.

[ehh]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

It would be great of the properties of baseball cheating translated to other parts of life.

"Honey, well, I did cheat on you but it was with this pretty busted chick so you can't be mad. I mean, it's not like I was getting freaky with some dime because I don't think you're hot anymore."

"Officer, yes I have been drinking tonight. I've had about 15 beers actually. But I'm driving under the speed limit and being very careful, so despite the fact that I'm double the legal limit you're gonna let this one slide, right?"

"Sorry professor, I was in fact cheating on this exam. But I was cheating off Johnny who only has a 3.2 GPA, I coulda been cheating off Joey who was sitting to my left and has a 4.0. See how honorable I am?"

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Cheating is cheating.

and the OP is right, nobody cared until records (Specifically the HR Records) started being broken.

its a ridiculous double standard.

Some people cheat to get a better grip on the ball to create unnatural movement to get a strike out,others do it from stealing signs and signals to rely information to different positional players, and yet others do it to be able to workout longer to improve strength FASTER, be able to play LONGER then what you normally would have (although this is the biggest gray area) and other things associated with hitting.

And guess what, they are all cheaters...and "cheating the game".

IMHO, it doesnt matter if one creates a more dramatic result.

for the people who played the game without cheating, good on them.

I dont like people who cheat in video games, or try and cheat the score in a basekball game or even when Bowling...if we all agree on using a 10 pound ball and youre using a 14 lb ball, guess what, you're cheating.

I couldnt imagine playing a sport with people who are cheating under the 'guise of gamesmanship...NO you're a cheater, and you should be treated as such.

so to all these dudes who are breaking records, be it homers, strikeouts consecutive hit streaks or whatever.

I'll acknowledge the fact they did it, probably be caught up in the moment... but ultimate i will say they cheated though... so its not really the same.

I.E Kenny Rogers cheating in the World Series...

[ab713]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Not one of these comparisons makes sense in this case.

You cheat on your girl, you affect your life, her life and the relationship, you drink and drive you endanger your life and possibly anyone else on the road that night, you cheat on a test and you affect your self and possibly lose your degree and forfeit a decent job.

Steroids in sports. Whats the big deal? What do they have to lose? A fans respect or the respect of the media?

They already have millions of dollars and are set for life. They don't care, so why should we?

[JBH3]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Whitey Ford cheated. He would scuff the ball with his ring, and if the ump was watching, he would have Elston Howard scuff the ball using his shin guard.

Norm Cash hit .361 back in 1961, then admitted years later he used a corked bat the whole year.

Hell, you could throw a spitball legally until 1920, and then baseball decided to let the pitchers who threw the spitball continue until they retired.

Baseball has a long history of players "cheating" in order to get the advantage over their opponent.

Let the debate begin. Please keep it civil, this is just my opinion.

Yes its all cheating, but IMO juicing is the worst.

Anyone can scuff a ball, anyone can cork a bat, anyone can steal signs and anyone can do steriods. However, with steroids it isn't a ball, bat, etc. that is being "altered" its a human body.

So for A-Rods runner up in the 2003 MVP race, who for all intents and purposes wasn't using roids, now has to inject himself too if he wants to compete for that MVP, or be on a level playing field.

The cheating aspect of Roids is far more severe than applying some pine tar to a bat, or spitting on a ball.

Look at what happened to some of those wrestlers, Chris Benoit for example, whose steroid use drove him into a rage where he killed his whole family.

Not only does it take cheating to a whole other level, but it grips and shakes society by the throat. Giving kids the idea that maybe it isn't so bad to get bigger, or use a substance to increase my endurance because Arod did it.

It ain't scuffing no damn baseball, or corking a bat.

Its injecting a highly toxic compound in your body that throws off your natural balance of hormones - that your body produces naturally for a reason because its all your individual body can take.

Some people, Hank Aaron for instance, come from a gene pool superior to the rest of us. That's part of what made him great, coupled w/ other intangibles.

ARod said it himself in the sense that he should've just accepted his play the way it was, and not have been selfish.

Who suffers from a scuffed ball or corked bat? The individual, maybe the team, a small group of people, and it's basically humiliation and disappointment people have to suffer with/through. Everyone moves on, and the damage done is miniscule in comparison.

If a kid sees Kenny Rogers put some pine tar on a ball, and then does it himself and gets caught their aren't any real victims. Maybe his family suffers some embarassment, but everyone moves on.

Steroids have a lasting affect on your body for the rest of your life.

Whether they like it or not, athletes are role-models. It's the way our society is. Since kids look up to these athletes, and some kids might not have a strong adult at home who is involved in every aspect of thier life, these kids look to athletes like ARod to measure how they should conduct themselves.

[MBMavs20]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

It would be great of the properties of baseball cheating translated to other parts of life.

"Honey, well, I did cheat on you but it was with this pretty busted chick so you can't be mad. I mean, it's not like I was getting freaky with some dime because I don't think you're hot anymore."

"Officer, yes I have been drinking tonight. I've had about 15 beers actually. But I'm driving under the speed limit and being very careful, so despite the fact that I'm double the legal limit you're gonna let this one slide, right?"

"Sorry professor, I was in fact cheating on this exam. But I was cheating off Johnny who only has a 3.2 GPA, I coulda been cheating off Joey who was sitting to my left and has a 4.0. See how honorable I am?"

LOL. You should talk to my students. They cheat all the time, whether it's a test or homework, and they see nothing wrong with it. I try and explain to them by cheating, they are passing off another person'e work as their own, and they are not learning anything, and they could care less. It's really ridiculous.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Why should they care if there are no consequences?

[JBH3]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Why should they care if there are no consequences?

The consequences are them not learning, which obviously isn't important to them - for various reasons.

[ehh]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

The consequences are them not learning, which obviously isn't important to them - for various reasons.

Sadly it is, but they probably won't realize it for another 10-15 years.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

No.

Someone throwing a spit ball or scuffing the ball up is something you would probably be thrown out of the game for, and wouldn't tarnish your legacy.

Corking your bat would be something that you could get thrown out of the game for, have maybe your recent history of stats put into question.

Taking steroids is something that you can get a 50 game ban for, and can ruin your entire legacy because you are not the who baseball has deemed legal.

Now, do I think taking steroids is as bad as people make it out to be? Nah. Steroids makes a good player great, a great player a HOF'er, a HOF'er to the best ever. It cannot make you a crap player into a HOF'er, because there is just so much more that goes into it.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

The consequences are them not learning, which obviously isn't important to them - for various reasons.

Thats not a consequence to them...(like you said)

so i ask again, what are THEIR consequences...and to go a level deeper why wouldnt they care.

[SPTO]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Why should they care if there are no consequences?

Which is a sad commentary.

BTW I heard an interesting suggestion from one of the morning show hosts here in Toronto. Let's say A-Rod is voted into the HOF there should be a notation on his plaque that says "confessed to using steroids and other performing enhancing drugs from 2001-2003" and have it there for all the world to see for the rest of time.

In some ways that would be a bigger bruise to the ego then an asterisk because let's face it, unless MLB explicitly prohibits Steroid Era guys from entering the Hall they'll most likely get in through the Vets committee which is made up of their peers.

[GSW]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Sadly it is, but they probably won't realize it for another 10-15 years.

I dont think its thier job to "realize" that. Its the parents jobs to teach them that.