Is all cheating the same?

[BigDofBA]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

btw, there are some weird federal laws on steroids. WIth some anabolic steroids, it's illegal to buy, sell, or possess them, but not illegal to use them.

Agreed. If it wasn't against MLB rules, players shouldn't be punished for it.

AAS are legal in some countries. What if a player trained in another country during the off-season and came back to the states and played? That wouldn't be breaking the law or MLB rules. Likewise, a player could go over the border to Mexico and inject, then come back into the America and go about his business. That's not illegal either.

Different countries have different rules. Heck, in England, it's not against the law for personal use. With the MLB having many players of different nationalities, it's their job to have rules and testing in place.

A lot of players train in Arizona during the off-season. It's not that far of a drive to Mexico. Remember what happened to David Boston when he played for the Cardinals?

I have a friend that worked for the Border Patrol in Texas and he has told me all sorts of stories about people going across for this very reason. It's also funny hearing how people try to smuggle things across the border.

[wwharton]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Yes its all cheating, but IMO juicing is the worst.

Anyone can scuff a ball, anyone can cork a bat, anyone can steal signs and anyone can do steriods. However, with steroids it isn't a ball, bat, etc. that is being "altered" its a human body.

So for A-Rods runner up in the 2003 MVP race, who for all intents and purposes wasn't using roids, now has to inject himself too if he wants to compete for that MVP, or be on a level playing field.

The cheating aspect of Roids is far more severe than applying some pine tar to a bat, or spitting on a ball.

Look at what happened to some of those wrestlers, Chris Benoit for example, whose steroid use drove him into a rage where he killed his whole family.

Not only does it take cheating to a whole other level, but it grips and shakes society by the throat. Giving kids the idea that maybe it isn't so bad to get bigger, or use a substance to increase my endurance because Arod did it.

It ain't scuffing no damn baseball, or corking a bat.

Its injecting a highly toxic compound in your body that throws off your natural balance of hormones - that your body produces naturally for a reason because its all your individual body can take.

Some people, Hank Aaron for instance, come from a gene pool superior to the rest of us. That's part of what made him great, coupled w/ other intangibles.

ARod said it himself in the sense that he should've just accepted his play the way it was, and not have been selfish.

Who suffers from a scuffed ball or corked bat? The individual, maybe the team, a small group of people, and it's basically humiliation and disappointment people have to suffer with/through. Everyone moves on, and the damage done is miniscule in comparison.

If a kid sees Kenny Rogers put some pine tar on a ball, and then does it himself and gets caught their aren't any real victims. Maybe his family suffers some embarassment, but everyone moves on.

Steroids have a lasting affect on your body for the rest of your life.

Whether they like it or not, athletes are role-models. It's the way our society is. Since kids look up to these athletes, and some kids might not have a strong adult at home who is involved in every aspect of thier life, these kids look to athletes like ARod to measure how they should conduct themselves.

There is a fundamental flaw in your argument. Steroids are a problem b/c of it's potential negative health effects... that has absolutely nothing to do with records., stats, etc. That's why everyone's going around in circles... the connection is just not there.

Are steroids bad? Of course they are, there's proof to it. Once it was determined that they were bad, they started to make rules against them... these rules are to protect the players and the kids... but NOT THE RECORDS. Players have been using PEDs forever... legally. Hell you can argue vitamins are performance enhancers. Of course players do things to help them work out better, have more endurance, strength, etc. The only ones we have problems with are the ones that seem to bring on health risks. Do you think players shouldn't be allowed to drink protein shakes, 5 hour energy drinks, etc?

And considering the issue is the effect of drugs, should anyone known to take illegal drugs of any sort be taken out the record books, since they have been bad "role models". If we go back into history this would include abusers of alcohol and possibly even cigarettes (would have to check my dates on that one). And with "role model" being the issue, what about the racists, wife beaters, players known to have affairs, etc? We're worried about protecting the kids who want to be like these great athletes.

The next argument is about cheating in baseball. Yes, there has been cheating forever and we mostly laugh it off. That doesn't make it right but that's a different discussion. We can talk about whether or not we should be ok with the amount of cheating in baseball in general. We can talk about how many record holders have done things that are considered cheating to get those records. I'd be with you in those debates, but singling out the big thing today just isn't fair, even if it has a bigger effect than any form of cheating in the past... which can't even be proven.

[ZB9]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

AAS are legal in some countries. What if a player trained in another country during the off-season and came back to the states and played? That wouldn't be breaking the law or MLB rules. Likewise, a player could go over the border to Mexico and inject, then come back into the America and go about his business. That's not illegal either.

Different countries have different rules. Heck, in England, it's not against the law for personal use. With the MLB having many players of different nationalities, it's their job to have rules and testing in place.

A lot of players train in Arizona during the off-season. It's not that far of a drive to Mexico. Remember what happened to David Boston when he played for the Cardinals?

I have a friend that worked for the Border Patrol in Texas and he has told me all sorts of stories about people going across for this very reason. It's also funny hearing how people try to smuggle things across the border.

quoted for truth

the only thing MLB can do is clearly set the rules they want people to follow, implement an extensive testing policy...and then enforce their rules moving forward. This retro witch hunt is BS

[wwharton]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

quoted for truth

the only thing MLB can do is clearly set the rules they want people to follow, implement an extensive testing policy...and then enforce their rules moving forward. This retro witch hunt is BS

100% agree

[ZB9]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

100% agree

really? wow that is suprising. I definitely wouldnt have guessed that wwharton

[wwharton]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

really? wow that is suprising. I definitely wouldnt have guessed that wwharton

no kidding... like I said, read my posts in all of these threads. anyway, replied to the Clemens thread so we can keep that discussion over there, but I think it's a joke that anyone is talking about anything record related. The only stats talk should be some kind of proof that a player did juice. If he did, he should be punished. But this tarnishing the game talk is stupid and just Bud's way of separating the players from himself. He should be cutting ESPN a great big check for their help.

[ZB9]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

no kidding... like I said, read my posts in all of these threads. anyway, replied to the Clemens thread so we can keep that discussion over there, but I think it's a joke that anyone is talking about anything record related. The only stats talk should be some kind of proof that a player did juice. If he did, he should be punished. But this tarnishing the game talk is stupid and just Bud's way of separating the players from himself. He should be cutting ESPN a great big check for their help.

absolutely agree with everything you said. The way MLB is handling this is a joke, and Selig is a chicken **** for throwing everyone else under the bus to save himself (which is going to backfire down the line imo)

as far as ESPN helping them out, they have way too much money invested in MLB so that is not suprising. That is their biggest partner. I wonder if George Mitchell being the chairman of ESPN for a while had something to do with him being named as the lead "investigator" for the witch hunt by MLB

[wwharton]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

The thing is Mitchell was pretty clear that the report was supposed to be used to find out about the problem. If a similar report came out about the NFL, the players involved wouldn't feel as big a need to protect their legacy. The whole thing blew up because high paid athletes didn't respect the power of the law, and thought it was more important to protect their legacy as a baseball player than be honest to the highest level of the law. I don't necessarily agree with Congress' involvement in all of this, but if they don't hold athletes accountable for lying to them, it looks very bad to the rest of the country who are held to different standards. All this crap is about lying, and all roid issues are about health.

Reports, and ESPN especially, could've kept this point clear from the beginning. But instead they run with the idea that records are tarnished. The media drove this bus... and Selig picked the directions... far away from his home.

[BigDofBA]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

absolutely agree with everything you said. The way MLB is handling this is a joke, and Selig is a chicken **** for throwing everyone else under the bus to save himself (which is going to backfire down the line imo)

Yep. It's not the player's fault, its the MLB and Selig. They let this crap go on and they had to have some idea about it. You can't take records away at this point.

Does anyone really think that an athlete isn't going to try to get every edge he can given the opportunity? If there wasn't any testing back then you would almost be foolish not to try something. Everyone was doing it and there was millions of dollars at stake.

I honestly don't care if A-rod, Clemens, or Bonds juiced. I don't like those guys but I'm sure some of my favorite players juiced as well. Although McGwire never tested posistive or admitted to using AAS, I am almost 100% certain he did.

I dislike guys like Bonds and Clemens for other reasons.

[Blzer]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Is all cheating the same?

Of course not! But cheating is cheating. The severity of the punishment should fit the severity of the crime, but punish one, punish all. Again, extremities will differ, but I don't see how one unfair advantage should be tolerated any less than another, scuffing included. There are even different steroid substances, some more beneficial than others. Why punish them the same for using them for different advantageous levels?

[faster]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Yes its all cheating, but IMO juicing is the worst

Look at what happened to some of those wrestlers, Chris Benoit for example, whose steroid use drove him into a rage where he killed his whole family.

Steroids have a lasting affect on your body for the rest of your life.

Chris Benoit did NOT smoke his wife because of steroids... feel free to prove that. Roid rage is a huge myth. You can be more aggressive but roids do NOT cause you to think illogically.

Also, how again do you know the long term affects? Is that what the media tells you? The media who is fed on their own agenda?

Do you know the real affects on the body? Really? Do you know tens of hundreds of people on juice intimately to draw your own conclusions? NO, you don't I bet.

You're as bad as the media. take what someone tells you and just believe it. Take a shred of truth and widen and widen it until it's so exaggerated that it's out of control. That's what the media has done to steroids. And it's sad that people just don't have a clue and spit uneducated babble because they are just plain misinformed.

[faster]

Re: Is all cheating the same?

Why is Pete Rose banished from baseball and so many other cheaters allowed to continue to have an involvement in the game?

And if you have 70% of the league on the juice, doesn't that even the playing field enough where those records aren't so ridiculous? I don't know, just throwing that out there.