If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

[PrettyT11]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

He got there first, what did you expect? If there were 3 guys lined up to pass 61 should they have had 3 cars waiting? Again, if Sosa gets there first he would have had the new car I'm sure.

I was just using the car thing as an example of the difference of fan fare that Mac got over the other guys. The fact is when he got to the record mark he got a new car and everything about that game was placed in the HOF. Sammy got nothing. What did Bonds get when he broke Mac's record of 70?? Oh yeah that right he got NOTHING. When Bonds broke Hank's record what did he get from the HOF?? Oh yeah thats right again he got nothing.

Personally I think Bonds got hated for a mixture of things. It wasn't anything more apparent than the other. But to just say one thing wasn't apart of it without any facts is just wrong.

[Pared]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

@ a Mets fan making this thread.

It never gets old...

Take off the blinders one day. The world is a pretty nice place.

[allBthere]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

I was just using the car thing as an example of the difference of fan fare that Mac got over the other guys. The fact is when he got to the record mark he got a new car and everything about that game was placed in the HOF. Sammy got nothing. What did Bonds get when he broke Mac's record of 70?? Oh yeah that right he got NOTHING. When Bonds broke Hank's record what did he get from the HOF?? Oh yeah thats right again he got nothing.

Personally I think Bonds got hated for a mixture of things. It wasn't anything more apparent than the other. But to just say one thing wasn't apart of it without any facts is just wrong.

but in order to include race as significant portion of that 'hate' means every black player would recieve that same amount of meanness. Do people hate Ryan Howard? or my current favorite player in the league Torii Hunter? How 'bout Big Pappi?

So how can bonds be hated for being black (by significant numbers) and other black players aren't hated at all. You can't pick and choose who's eligeable to be a victim of racism. Either the majority of mlb fans are racist or they aren't.

[PrettyT11]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

but in order to include race as significant portion of that 'hate' means every black player would recieve that same amount of meanness. Do people hate Ryan Howard? or my current favorite player in the league Torii Hunter? How 'bout Big Pappi?

So how can bonds be hated for being black (by significant numbers) and other black players aren't hated at all. You can't pick and choose who's eligeable to be a victim of racism. Either the majority of mlb fans are racist or they aren't.

Man what are you talking about?? I'm not the one that brought any of that up or the person you was arguing with. Plus your analogy sucks. He is the only one who went past Ruth's numbers and is the only one to have come close to it. Hunter hasn't come within any reach of ANY of Ruth numbers. Howard hasn't either. You can't use them as example unless they where in the same situation or even a similar situation. Neither one of those guys names have even been mentioned in the same breath as Babe Ruth.

You can't make a blanket statement like he can't be hated for this if these other guys aren't hated. They are not in the same situations. Just because one person is hated for something doesn't mean everybody else has to be hated for the same thing. Bonds has been hated for his arrogance. That doesn't mean every arrogant player is hated as well. Or do you want tp dispute that too?? Plus you don't know what is said about anybody in other stadiums or cities if you ARE NOT there. There have already been people in this thread who have given you FIRST HAND experience of what they have seen or heard going to see Bonds play. You can't discredit somebody's first hand experience by saying well why hasn't Howard been hated.

There have been numerous stories, reports, and every thing else about what Hank went through breaking Ruth's record. Willie Mays didn't get the same thing when he played. Nothing close to it at all. So I guess by your logic Hank's hate was for other reasons as well.

[allBthere]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

Man what are you talking about?? I'm not the one that brought any of that up or the person you was arguing with. Plus your analogy sucks. He is the only one who went past Ruth's numbers and is the only one to have come close to it. Hunter hasn't come within any reach of ANY of Ruth numbers. Howard hasn't either. You can't use them as example unless they where in the same situation or even a similar situation. Neither one of those guys names have even been mentioned in the same breath as Babe Ruth.

You can't make a blanket statement like he can't be hated for this if these other guys aren't hated. They are not in the same situations. Just because one person is hated for something doesn't mean everybody else has to be hated for the same thing. Bonds has been hated for his arrogance. That doesn't mean every arrogant player is hated as well. Or do you want tp dispute that too?? Plus you don't know what is said about anybody in other stadiums or cities if you ARE NOT there. There have already been people in this thread who have given you FIRST HAND experience of what they have seen or heard going to see Bonds play. You can't discredit somebody's first hand experience by saying well why hasn't Howard been hated.

There have been numerous stories, reports, and every thing else about what Hank went through breaking Ruth's record. Willie Mays didn't get the same thing when he played. Nothing close to it at all. So I guess by your logic Hank's hate was for other reasons as well.

I'm just sick of all this Bonds talk...I think the majority of Baseball fans don't like him - and although I'm not disputing he's recieved racist comments - I am disputing that the majority of fans don't dislike him because of his race. I'm also disputing that the majority of mlb fans didn't want him to be the HR record holder because of his race.
I'm also talking league-wide - especially for Barry, because he was boo'd in every away stadium and cheer'd at home. I believe the vast majority of fans weren't booing him because of his race.

if you want to talk about the 60s or 70s go ahead.
also, like i've said before - I don't think anyone wanted ruth's record broken period black or white.

[Alliball]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

I have a feeling that Griffey would be more than embraced by the public if were making a run at Ruth.

[Pared]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

I have a feeling that Griffey would be more than embraced by the public if were making a run at Ruth.

He would. This entire race talk is just uncalled for and serves no real purpose here.

It would be nice if people could just drop it. Has nothing to do with A-Rod making a bid for the record at this point.

[wwharton]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

I saw a pretty good old time article from 1969 from Sports Illustrated today. A lot of what was said about PEDs back then is pretty ominous. It really makes you think that if steroids were prevalent as far back as the sixties, who's to say that the stars of the 70s and 80s weren't juicing. That's exactly why I don't any type of asterik should be placed on 1996-2004 or whatever. Honestly, if guys in football, track, wrestling, and other sports were heavily using steroids in the sixties. You can't honestly tell me that baseball players didn't at least catch on to the trend by the seventies at least.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...2543/index.htm

There are no asterisks in my mind. If A-rod breaks the record he is the king. Cheating has been a part of baseball forever with the Blacksox, uppers, spitballs, skuffs, stealing signs, etc.

Babe Ruth didn't even play in an integrated league.

You don't know how far steroid use goes back and pitchers and hitters were using.

Sums up my feelings pretty well. Of the 3 major sports, baseball has been pretty much known for the amount of cheating in the game. It's laughable. Corked bats, spit balls, scuffed balls, stealing signs, etc. Pitchers and hitters have been cheating for as long as I can remember but now we conditioned to think steroids have ruined the game (and it's only the hitters when more than twice as many pitchers have been penalized for juicing since the rules changed) and we ignore any cheating that was going on and caught DURING GAMES before Canseco's book (roids were around long before the media made them a big issue).

Give me record of all cheating by all players dating back to the beginning of the game and then I'll say we should start rewriting record books and filling them with only the "pure" players.

[Alliball]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

Can somebody show me in a baseball rule book where it says stealing signs is expressly forbidden?

[Artman22]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

He will still be the man in my eyes. A-rod is the best player in the game right now hands down. It's sad he used illegal subtances while at texas but C-mon the dude obviously has talent and in reality does not need any steriods to do great things.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

Can somebody show me in a baseball rule book where it says stealing signs is expressly forbidden?

It's not. It's only "officially" forbidden electronically. Doesn't negate some of the validity of the point made though.

Anyway, more on topic...I will recognize A-Rod with a built in *...lol. He will be the statistical champion. I naturally separate the eras of ballplayers to a large degree anyway. I don't think the record gets diminished in any way. Here's how I compartmentalize my MLB:

-What Aaron did will always be remarkable, given all he endured, no matter who the statistical "HR King" is.

-The Way Ruth was head and shoulders above the rest of the league (at one time having more HRs in a season than all the other teams in baseball except one). He might have gone down as one of the most dominant pitchers in history as well...pretty impressive, regardless of what people feel his level of competition was.

-The way Jackie Robinson's demeanor and skill keyed a shift towards leveling the playing field. It was a bit too late for some Negro League greats like Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, "Smokey" Joe and many, many others, but it made the game we see today possible.

-The way Maris beat Ruth's single season record despite the enormous odds (some added along the way) placed against him.

-The Way McGwire and Sosa, juiced or not, likely saved baseball with their record chase.

-The way Cal Ripken brought a sense of pride in the seemingly simple task of showing up and playing...eventually leading to his own impressive "iron man" streak.

-The way Bonds became the most feared hitter in the game, not just by his "juiced" power, but by remarkable plate presence, eventually leading to the HR crown.

-The way Maddux, kind of quietly, became possibly the best pitcher in the modern era.

There are a TON more historical examples (and I haven't even gotten to the influence of some of those great Negro Leaguers), but that's my way of looking at it.

And it will be the same for A-Rod. With him, more than ever with Bonds, I'll be a bit reflective about how he could have likely done it without help.

Maybe eventually Pujols will be the "clean" (if nothing surfaces about him) record chaser many are waiting for. Who knows.

Bottom line, I love this game. Steroids can define an era or a group of players, but it doesn't define the game...at least not for me.

I think the HOF should just name this era of PEDs specifically like it has other eras, and it can encompass the accomplishments within it. Might make guys like Maddux stand out even more...who knows.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling...long-windedness strikes again...lol. Just my round-about way of saying I'll recognize his accomplishment, but just in it's own light.

[Pared]

Re: If A-Rod breaks the HR record...

Good post, SF.