From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

[TheMatrix31]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Anybody heard from Cory Lidle lately?

I'ma gonna go to hell when I die.

I'd advise against making comments like that in the future.

[JBH3]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Anybody heard from Cory Lidle lately?

I'ma gonna go to hell when I die.

Why would you even say that? That's just real f***ked up.

[snepp]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

In 2008 he was 12th in RZR and 9th in fielding %. (Plus/Minus was 9th in '07, wasn't even in top 10 in 2008).

In 2007 he was 15th in fielding % and 13th in RZR.

His fielding has been even worse so far this year. The only one of those stats he's been near the top of since 2006 was balls out of zone. There is no way he is a top 5 fielder, and even arguing him being top 10 is stretching it.

I'm not saying he's a bad fielder, but he certainly isn't one of the best like the poster stated.

That's a fantastic bit of cherry-picking, care to try again with just the slightest hint of impartiality?

It was nice of you to ignore the OOZ portion of THT's fielding metric. Beltre far and away led the league in 2008, while finishing 3rd in 2007.

Fielding percentage? Really? *insert numerous snarky remarks here*

[snepp]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Atkins = yuck

He's a DH that can't hit outside of Coors.

[rsox]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Atkins = yuck

He's a DH that can't hit outside of Coors.

Batting Average wise he struggles away from Coors. Interstingly he has almost as many Home Runs on the road (45) as he does at home (47). He is a better overall hitter at Coors but his power number don't differ that much.

[Coug00]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Atkins = yuck

He's a DH that can't hit outside of Coors.

I'd take Mora and Young out of my top 10 and put them below Beltre as well. Both are average/below average defensive gloves at 3B and their park-adjusted offensive numbers are slightly below Beltre's as well.

Personally, I have a hard time believing Beltre factors in a run less a game, I never fully believe those statistics that are loosely based on estimates and unknown factors.

Definitely not a run a game (not sure where that came from). The general consensus is that Beltre saves about 7-11 runs a season compared to an average defensive 3B. You compare that to somebody like Atkins and the defensive difference is roughly 15-20 runs a season. That's a 4-ish win difference over a season just for defense.

[cubsfan203]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

I'd take Mora and Young out of my top 10 and put them below Beltre as well. Both are average/below average defensive gloves at 3B and their park-adjusted offensive numbers are slightly below Beltre's as well.



Definitely not a run a game (not sure where that came from). The general consensus is that Beltre saves about 7-11 runs a season compared to an average defensive 3B. You compare that to somebody like Atkins and the defensive difference is roughly 15-20 runs a season. That's a 4-ish win difference over a season just for defense.

You realise that this is Young's first year playing 3rd base right? Not sure how you already know he's a below average fielder at 3rd.

I honestly can't believe people think Beltre is/was ever one of the best 3rd baseman. Maybe for one year, and that's it. Since then he's been average with a decent glove.

[Seahawk76]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Both of those are debatable. Beltre hasn't been a top 5 fielding 3rd baseman since 2006. He's probably more in the 10-15 range now. He's probably closer to the 15th best offensively as well. Hardly up there with the best, more or less mediocre.

Ummm....no. Beltre had a Wins Above Replacement value of +4.1 last year which would put him near the top of all MLB 3rd basemen. And anyone who thinks he hasn't been a top 5 fielding 3rd baseman since 2006 just hasn't been paying attention. If he's not the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game he's in the top three at the very least.

He's been worth every dime of the contract the M's gave him and I hope they can re-sign him.

[cubsfan203]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Ummm....no. Beltre had a Wins Above Replacement value of +4.1 last year which would put him near the top of all MLB 3rd basemen. And anyone who thinks he hasn't been a top 5 fielding 3rd baseman since 2006 just hasn't been paying attention. If he's not the best defensive 3rd baseman in the game he's in the top three at the very least.

He's been worth every dime of the contract the M's gave him and I hope they can re-sign him.

Maybe you should try telling him that instead of me, because he sure hasn't shown it this year.

[Seahawk76]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Maybe you should try telling him that instead of me, because he sure hasn't shown it this year.

You do know we're just a month into the season don't you? Offensively Beltre is a .270, 25 HR, 85 RBI, .800 OPS guy and that's about where he'll end up by year's end provided he remains healthy. And he'll add another gold glove to his collection as well.

[Speedy]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Anybody else remember how highly touted Sean Burroughs was?

[snepp]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

Maybe you should try telling him that instead of me, because he sure hasn't shown it this year.

Yes, because he's the first player in the history of the game to have a ****ty first month of the season.

[Coug00]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

You realise that this is Young's first year playing 3rd base right? Not sure how you already know he's a below average fielder at 3rd.

I was never extremely impressed by Young at SS and so far he's been the worst fielding starting 3B in baseball. However, I won't write him off based on 1 month, but so far I don't like what I've seen and as of now put him behind Beltre.

I honestly can't believe people think Beltre is/was ever one of the best 3rd baseman. Maybe for one year, and that's it. Since then he's been average with a decent glove.

Obviously, the difference is they put more emphasis on the defensive side of the game than you. Defense is half of baseball, but its mostly ignored by many fans cause its difficult to put a measurement on. Guess who the two best defensive teams in baseball were last year? They met in the World Series.

Beltre is better than a "decent glove". I'd say average offense with a great glove is a good 3B. Would you say a great bat with average defense is a good 3B?

[cubsfan203]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

You do know we're just a month into the season don't you? Offensively Beltre is a .270, 25 HR, 85 RBI, .800 OPS guy and that's about where he'll end up by year's end provided he remains healthy. And he'll add another gold glove to his collection as well.

His collection of 2?

Ok let's get back on topic here. No need arguing with Mariners fans trying to justify the $12 million they are paying Beltre this year.

[Seahawk76]

Re: From Superstar to where the hell have you gone!!!!

His collection of 2?

Ok let's get back on topic here. No need arguing with Mariners fans trying to justify the $12 million they are paying Beltre this year.

The money he's being paid is irrelevant to the topic. Bringing Beltre up in a topic about superstars who have "disappeared" was dumb on so many levels. Baseball people know how good Beltre is which is why he's going to have quite a few suitors when his contract expires. Since you're apparently a Rays fan, when they were in town recently Joe Maddon said that Beltre was the best defensive 3rd baseman he'd ever seen. That's a little beyond "decent," which is all you've been willing to concede about Beltre's defensive abilities, so I guess that you and Maddon don't exactly see eye to eye on that subject.