Hall of Fame Pyramid

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  • SPTO
    binging
    • Feb 2003
    • 68046

    #16
    Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

    Didn't want to borrow too much from your picks Pfunk i'd put Pedro at a level 3 right now if he has a few more great seasons and stay healthy he'll easily be a level 4.
    Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

    "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

    Comment

    • SPTO
      binging
      • Feb 2003
      • 68046

      #17
      Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

      Didn't want to borrow too much from your picks Pfunk i'd put Pedro at a level 3 right now if he has a few more great seasons and stay healthy he'll easily be a level 4.
      Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

      "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

      Comment

      • cookusu
        MVP
        • Jul 2002
        • 1685

        #18
        Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

        Maddux only a level 3? What is wrong with you people?

        It is a nice concept, glad to see the writer admitted he stole from Bill James.

        Probably just create more arguments. Hard to believe a guy like Sandberg would only be a #1 level guy when compared to the 2B all through history.

        I will put a list together.

        Where did this guy grow up, AL city or NL city, Garvey was an SOB in my mind when I was a kid. Now I look and his numbers fall short but at the time he was considered very good.

        Comment

        • cookusu
          MVP
          • Jul 2002
          • 1685

          #19
          Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

          Maddux only a level 3? What is wrong with you people?

          It is a nice concept, glad to see the writer admitted he stole from Bill James.

          Probably just create more arguments. Hard to believe a guy like Sandberg would only be a #1 level guy when compared to the 2B all through history.

          I will put a list together.

          Where did this guy grow up, AL city or NL city, Garvey was an SOB in my mind when I was a kid. Now I look and his numbers fall short but at the time he was considered very good.

          Comment

          • SPTO
            binging
            • Feb 2003
            • 68046

            #20
            Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

            </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
            Maddux only a level 3? What is wrong with you people?

            It is a nice concept, glad to see the writer admitted he stole from Bill James.

            Probably just create more arguments. Hard to believe a guy like Sandberg would only be a #1 level guy when compared to the 2B all through history.

            I will put a list together.

            Where did this guy grow up, AL city or NL city, Garvey was an SOB in my mind when I was a kid. Now I look and his numbers fall short but at the time he was considered very good.

            <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

            Bill Simmons came from Mass. was a huge BoSox fan but now lives in San Fran if i'm not mistaken.
            Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

            "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

            Comment

            • SPTO
              binging
              • Feb 2003
              • 68046

              #21
              Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

              </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
              Maddux only a level 3? What is wrong with you people?

              It is a nice concept, glad to see the writer admitted he stole from Bill James.

              Probably just create more arguments. Hard to believe a guy like Sandberg would only be a #1 level guy when compared to the 2B all through history.

              I will put a list together.

              Where did this guy grow up, AL city or NL city, Garvey was an SOB in my mind when I was a kid. Now I look and his numbers fall short but at the time he was considered very good.

              <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

              Bill Simmons came from Mass. was a huge BoSox fan but now lives in San Fran if i'm not mistaken.
              Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

              "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

              Comment

              • cookusu
                MVP
                • Jul 2002
                • 1685

                #22
                Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                That is what I figured, An AL fan, not seeing Garvey come through with clutch hits against his team, I hate Garver and that was before the 1984 playoffs.

                Comment

                • cookusu
                  MVP
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 1685

                  #23
                  Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                  That is what I figured, An AL fan, not seeing Garvey come through with clutch hits against his team, I hate Garver and that was before the 1984 playoffs.

                  Comment

                  • CMH
                    Making you famous
                    • Oct 2002
                    • 26203

                    #24
                    Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                    Terrible Idea.

                    Why? B/c a Pyramid System would be based entirely on opinions. Someone would make a cut-off and it'll cause problems, why? Because there is no fact when it comes to deciding who's better.

                    Look at that Palmeiro argument. People arguin he never led the league or won an MVP award. MVP Awards are opinion. Hitting 38 homeruns a year for 8 straight years is a FACT based on stats.

                    Palmeiro's reasons to get into the hall are all based on facts while the reasons to not include him have to do with opinion - the biggest being, "he is not the best player at 1B right now." That would be an opinion. IMO he is the best 1B in the AL.
                    "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                    "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                    Comment

                    • CMH
                      Making you famous
                      • Oct 2002
                      • 26203

                      #25
                      Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                      Terrible Idea.

                      Why? B/c a Pyramid System would be based entirely on opinions. Someone would make a cut-off and it'll cause problems, why? Because there is no fact when it comes to deciding who's better.

                      Look at that Palmeiro argument. People arguin he never led the league or won an MVP award. MVP Awards are opinion. Hitting 38 homeruns a year for 8 straight years is a FACT based on stats.

                      Palmeiro's reasons to get into the hall are all based on facts while the reasons to not include him have to do with opinion - the biggest being, "he is not the best player at 1B right now." That would be an opinion. IMO he is the best 1B in the AL.
                      "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                      "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                      Comment

                      • cookusu
                        MVP
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 1685

                        #26
                        Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                        Pfunk

                        Rickey Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter ever. That is at least good for a level 4.

                        Maddux has been a top pitcher for 15 years and for a stretch of 5 or 6 years he was the best pitcher that has to be at least a level 4.

                        John Franco?

                        Arod is easily a #5 if he continues on with his career the way he has. He has done things that no shortstop has ever done before offensively and he is a pretty damn good fielder.

                        You guys have to remember to compare players by position no way a player like Sandberg should be hanging out in the level ones, with one dimensional players like Fred McGriff.

                        So I guess this won't help at all cause not only will people complain about who is in the HOF but they will complain about what level they got in at, it is fun for arguments sake though.

                        Comment

                        • cookusu
                          MVP
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 1685

                          #27
                          Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                          Pfunk

                          Rickey Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter ever. That is at least good for a level 4.

                          Maddux has been a top pitcher for 15 years and for a stretch of 5 or 6 years he was the best pitcher that has to be at least a level 4.

                          John Franco?

                          Arod is easily a #5 if he continues on with his career the way he has. He has done things that no shortstop has ever done before offensively and he is a pretty damn good fielder.

                          You guys have to remember to compare players by position no way a player like Sandberg should be hanging out in the level ones, with one dimensional players like Fred McGriff.

                          So I guess this won't help at all cause not only will people complain about who is in the HOF but they will complain about what level they got in at, it is fun for arguments sake though.

                          Comment

                          • pfunk
                            Rookie
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 354

                            #28
                            Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                            </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
                            Pfunk

                            Rickey Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter ever. That is at least good for a level 4.

                            Maddux has been a top pitcher for 15 years and for a stretch of 5 or 6 years he was the best pitcher that has to be at least a level 4.

                            John Franco?

                            Arod is easily a #5 if he continues on with his career the way he has. He has done things that no shortstop has ever done before offensively and he is a pretty damn good fielder.

                            You guys have to remember to compare players by position no way a player like Sandberg should be hanging out in the level ones, with one dimensional players like Fred McGriff.

                            So I guess this won't help at all cause not only will people complain about who is in the HOF but they will complain about what level they got in at, it is fun for arguments sake though.

                            <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

                            Arguments make life fun.

                            Maddux - Level three for consistent greatness. Lacks the excitement factor to be a 4. I never came home from work to see that he was pitching and got excited that I could watch him pitch. I am biased though cause he was dominating my Mets. He was also very mortal in the postseason. I may have to give him a 4 though if/when he wins # 300

                            Rickey was a 4 in 1995. Than he played like a 0 for the next 7 years (Batted over .241 only once between 96-02, somehow managed to hit .315 for the Mets in '99 in between clubhouse card games.). His BB and R records are nice, but he sacrificed his dignity for them. He played himself right out of level 4.

                            John Franco is #2 all time in Saves and #1 in saves by a lefty. He is the all time save leader for 2 franchises. Saves are overrated, that is why he is a 2, not a 4.

                            AROD definetly could be a 5 someday, thought Griffey would be too....

                            Sandberg was great for his era, that is why he should be in. He pales in comparison to Alomar (pre-Mets) that is why he is a 2 in my mind. However, 1 is the level for players who are debatable and apparantly he is. I don't know why though. I think he's a 2, I should stop listening to the stupid writers.


                            Comment

                            • pfunk
                              Rookie
                              • Mar 2003
                              • 354

                              #29
                              Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                              </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
                              Pfunk

                              Rickey Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter ever. That is at least good for a level 4.

                              Maddux has been a top pitcher for 15 years and for a stretch of 5 or 6 years he was the best pitcher that has to be at least a level 4.

                              John Franco?

                              Arod is easily a #5 if he continues on with his career the way he has. He has done things that no shortstop has ever done before offensively and he is a pretty damn good fielder.

                              You guys have to remember to compare players by position no way a player like Sandberg should be hanging out in the level ones, with one dimensional players like Fred McGriff.

                              So I guess this won't help at all cause not only will people complain about who is in the HOF but they will complain about what level they got in at, it is fun for arguments sake though.

                              <hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

                              Arguments make life fun.

                              Maddux - Level three for consistent greatness. Lacks the excitement factor to be a 4. I never came home from work to see that he was pitching and got excited that I could watch him pitch. I am biased though cause he was dominating my Mets. He was also very mortal in the postseason. I may have to give him a 4 though if/when he wins # 300

                              Rickey was a 4 in 1995. Than he played like a 0 for the next 7 years (Batted over .241 only once between 96-02, somehow managed to hit .315 for the Mets in '99 in between clubhouse card games.). His BB and R records are nice, but he sacrificed his dignity for them. He played himself right out of level 4.

                              John Franco is #2 all time in Saves and #1 in saves by a lefty. He is the all time save leader for 2 franchises. Saves are overrated, that is why he is a 2, not a 4.

                              AROD definetly could be a 5 someday, thought Griffey would be too....

                              Sandberg was great for his era, that is why he should be in. He pales in comparison to Alomar (pre-Mets) that is why he is a 2 in my mind. However, 1 is the level for players who are debatable and apparantly he is. I don't know why though. I think he's a 2, I should stop listening to the stupid writers.


                              Comment

                              • cookusu
                                MVP
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 1685

                                #30
                                Re: Hall of Fame Pyramid

                                Maddux may not be exciting to you, but watching him carve up hitters for years excites me, he is a master at his craft. Check out his numbers http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/maddugr01.shtml

                                His career ERA is 1.5 runs better than the league, that's career not one season, simply amazing. He should get 300 wins and has a shot at 3000 strikeouts and less than 1000 walks, just like my man Ferige Jenkins.

                                Remember Sandberg was a 2B, he hit for power, ran well, stole a lot of bases and was a great fielder, scored over 100 runs many times and played in an era rigth before this offensive explosion top 10 2B all time have to be at least level 3. http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml
                                I also don't think Sandberg pales in comparison to Robbie, Alomar may be better but not significantly. Actually Bill James has Sandberg rated 7th all time and Alomar 10th.

                                Henderson could be a level 5, his average was low the last 5 years or so, but his OBP was still way better than most leadoff hitters, and was simply one of the most destructive forces in the game. http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/henderi01.shtml

                                James has Henderson rated 4th all time in Left Field.

                                Franco played mostly in the Era of the cheap save, 1 inning or less, it my mind he was a good releiver but not great, except for maybe a year or two. Lee Smith, Goose Gossage played a lot of their careers when closers were still actually expected to get out of jams and sometimes pitch two or 3 innings. Same with Bruce Sutter early in his career until Whitey Herzog and the Cards changed all of that. http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/francjo01.shtml

                                Comment

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