Best Pitcher in the Majors

[ClutchCity]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

Cy Young's K/9 was a WHOPPING 3.43 throughout his career, so maybe, just maybe, ya think he might not have been a strikeout pitcher? Maddux only sits at a little over 6 K/9, so he wasn't a huge strikeout pitcher either. Yes, he had more than Cy Young, but that really doesn't take much. And if you consider how long both guys played, Maddux having a lot of strikeouts isn't that hard to figure out.

I should have figured from your first post this wasn't even worth arguing, and I guess I was right. Now go root for CC and his 2 imaginary World Series rings you think he'll have.

Ok, you got a valid point, but Halladay won't be nothing but a 10 time all-star without a title to show for it. Unless he ends up with the right team of course. And no your not right when you cleary say that K's are not a huge factor. Out 15 pitchers with 3,000 Career strikeouts, including the pitchers that are active are Hall of Famers or will be inducted.

[SPTO]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

CC more durable then Halladay?

Sabathia: 28 CGs
Halladay: 41 CGs

Take into account the type of pitchers these guys are and i'd say Halladay will probably get 20 more CGs under his belt and CC will be lucky to have half that amount. Let's also take into account the conditioning of both pitchers, Halladay is one of the hardest workers out there and is one of, if not the most economical starting pitchers in terms of pitch count. CC is a guy who will routinely get into 100+ pitches by the 6th inning and most of those pitches will be high intensity situations. CC is bound to have a long DL stint in the next year or two.

Now I know you'll mention Halladay's stints on the DL but it's not because the man isn't durable. One year he got a broken bone in his foot thanks to a hot shot liner by Kevin Mench. His other long stint(s) on the DL was due to right shoulder issues the year before the Mench injury. Halladay has never had any arm problems since '04 when he had those issues.

You can't really count his '07 "injury" as that was an emergency appendictomy. Also as I recall he came back from that much earlier then doctors had wanted him to.

As for your assertion about being just a 10 time All-Star? Let's not forget that Halladay has won a Cy Young. He was the clear cut favorite in '05 to win the Cy Young before getting injured, last year he would've won if it wasn't for Cliff Lee and now it seems like this year he's going to be bumped off again due to Zack Grienke's God-like season. If you add that up Doc should have 4 Cy Youngs on his mantle.

The Jays are an up and coming team and Halladay is a guy that doesn't crave the spotlight. I have a feeling if the Jays don't fall off the face of the earth this year he'll sign a long term extension with some options in the final years of the deal. It's not like the Jays don't have a bright future as there are some arms out there ready to make it to the show and under the guidance of team CEO Paul Beeston I wouldn't be surprised if the Jays gamble on a big name free agent or two next offseason.

[snepp]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

Cy Young's K/9 was a WHOPPING 3.43 throughout his career, so maybe, just maybe, ya think he might not have been a strikeout pitcher?

Do you have any idea what the league strikeout rates were in those days? Cy Young's strikeout rates were routinely better than league average, I'd say that made him a "strikeout pitcher".

[Kearnzo]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

Do you have any idea what the league strikeout rates were in those days? Cy Young's strikeout rates were routinely better than league average, I'd say that made him a "strikeout pitcher".

Valid point. I was more or less just arguing the fact that he thought Maddux having more career K's than Young made him a strikeout pitcher.

[ClutchCity]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

I still think C.C. top 5 pitchers in the league presently and would place him before Doc. Roy hasn't played 1 postseason game at all,so it's not proven that he is the better pitcher. C.C. will have much more oppurtunities to prove himself in the postseason, much more than Roy Halladay just because the talent of the teams. I don't see Toronto in the postseason this year or next year. Although they are playing great. Unless Roy gets traded or signed to a more talented team we won't see him in the postseason

[JBH3]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

I still think C.C. top 5 pitchers in the league presently and would place him before Doc. Roy hasn't played 1 postseason game at all,so it's not proven that he is the better pitcher. C.C. will have much more oppurtunities to prove himself in the postseason, much more than Roy Halladay just because the talent of the teams. I don't see Toronto in the postseason this year or next year. Although they are playing great. Unless Roy gets traded or signed to a more talented team we won't see him in the postseason

The postseason is irrellevant.

...and if you want to count CC's post seasons right now it only hurts is stock in this grossly ******** argument you're making for CC being better then Roy Halladay. Other comments such as CC being better because he makes more money...?!?!?

How the hell does that determine who the better pitcher is?

And like SPTO pointed out...Halladay is a horse, CC is only about the size of a horse, and Halladay has far and away more CGs already and will for his career anyways. Strikeouts, K Rates,...who cares...OUTS are the only thing that matters and Halladay gets plenty of them w/ his ability to induce ground balls.

[ClutchCity]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

The postseason is irrellevant.

...and if you want to count CC's post seasons right now it only hurts is stock in this grossly ******** argument you're making for CC being better then Roy Halladay. Other comments such as CC being better because he makes more money...?!?!?

How the hell does that determine who the better pitcher is?

And like SPTO pointed out...Halladay is a horse, CC is only about the size of a horse, and Halladay has far and away more CGs already and will for his career anyways. Strikeouts, K Rates,...who cares...OUTS are the only thing that matters and Halladay gets plenty of them w/ his ability to induce ground balls.

ANDD CC DOESNT INDUCE FLY BALLS???? Only thing Roy has over CC is the ablity to play longer in a game maybe. Other than that I still take C.C. There E.RA career average are about the same so don't go there with the outs and the scoring.Yeah and if your going to pay that amount of money for a player, AND I KNOW ITS THE YANKESS OF COURSE. But if you have one the highest paid contracts in the MAJORS then, OBVISOULY YOU HAVE BEEN GREAT OVER a course of at least 6 or 7 seasons. Face it C.C. Sabathia is a one of the best pitchers. You guys make it seem like he isn't consistent enough or something. so POSTSEASON, K'S, AND W'S determine if your one of the best. C.C. and Roy both have those going for them, but I still think C.C. is better to have on a team if we are talking Postseason, also. How can the Postseason be irrelevent ? Isn't that where you want to be in any sport ending your season?

[NYJets]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

ANDD CC DOESNT INDUCE FLY BALLS???? Only thing Roy has over CC is the ablity to play longer in a game maybe. Other than that I still take C.C. There E.RA career average are about the same so don't go there with the outs and the scoring.Yeah and if your going to pay that amount of money for a player, AND I KNOW ITS THE YANKESS OF COURSE. But if you have one the highest paid contracts in the MAJORS then, OBVISOULY YOU HAVE BEEN GREAT OVER a course of at least 6 or 7 seasons. Face it C.C. Sabathia is a one of the best pitchers. You guys make it seem like he isn't consistent enough or something. so POSTSEASON, K'S, AND W'S determine if your one of the best. C.C. and Roy both have those going for them, but I still think C.C. is better to have on a team if we are talking Postseason, also. How can the Postseason be irrelevent ? Isn't that where you want to be in any sport ending your season?

CC has been bad in the postseason. I don't really hold it against him, he's proven he can pitch in big games, but it's certainly not something that CC has over Halladay.

CC is one of the best pitchers in baseball, but there is really no argument that can be made to put him over Halladay.

[ClutchCity]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

CC has been bad in the postseason. I don't really hold it against him, he's proven he can pitch in big games, but it's certainly not something that CC has over Halladay.

CC is one of the best pitchers in baseball, but there is really no argument that can be made to put him over Halladay.

YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT ROY IS THE BEST GAH DAMN PITCHER IN THE MAJORS RIGHT NOW. I CANT EVER SAY CC IS BETTER THAN THE GREAT ROY HALLADAY.

[JBH3]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

ANDD CC DOESNT INDUCE FLY BALLS???? Only thing Roy has over CC is the ablity to play longer in a game maybe. Other than that I still take C.C. There E.RA career average are about the same so don't go there with the outs and the scoring.Yeah and if your going to pay that amount of money for a player, AND I KNOW ITS THE YANKESS OF COURSE. But if you have one the highest paid contracts in the MAJORS then, OBVISOULY YOU HAVE BEEN GREAT OVER a course of at least 6 or 7 seasons. Face it C.C. Sabathia is a one of the best pitchers. You guys make it seem like he isn't consistent enough or something. so POSTSEASON, K'S, AND W'S determine if your one of the best. C.C. and Roy both have those going for them, but I still think C.C. is better to have on a team if we are talking Postseason, also. How can the Postseason be irrelevent ? Isn't that where you want to be in any sport ending your season?

The postseason is irrelevant because CC's postseasons berths are and were not completely dependent on him. When he was in CLE and a gm away from the WS it was Fausto Carmona propelling Cleveland to their success as much as it was CC, and in MIL he YES proved what he's capable of but he wasn't putting the runs on the board either.

Postseason success is dependent on not just the pitcher, so by that fact you can't make an argument for CC being better because we haven't even seen Halladay in that light.

So since entering the postseason is a TEAM accomplishment, not an individual one, then comparing postseason appearances and trying to pass that off as one pitcher being better than the other is completely and utterly dumbfounding.

A polarizing example is Dan Marino vs Trent Dilfer...Dilfer's the better QB because he has had more postseason success given he's got a ring right?

Since you like to use arbitrary methods to determine who's better, Roy has finished in the top5 in CY Young voting 4 times...CC twice. :wink:

So I guess Roy's the better overall pitcher right.

[ClutchCity]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

The postseason is irrelevant because CC's postseasons berths are and were not completely dependent on him. When he was in CLE and a gm away from the WS it was Fausto Carmona propelling Cleveland to their success as much as it was CC, and in MIL he YES proved what he's capable of but he wasn't putting the runs on the board either.

Postseason success is dependent on not just the pitcher, so by that fact you can't make an argument for CC being better because we haven't even seen Halladay in that light.

So since entering the postseason is a TEAM accomplishment, not an individual one, then comparing postseason appearances and trying to pass that off as one pitcher being better than the other is completely and utterly dumbfounding.

A polarizing example is Dan Marino vs Trent Dilfer...Dilfer's the better QB because he has had more postseason success given he's got a ring right?

Since you like to use arbitrary methods to determine who's better, Roy has finished in the top5 in CY Young voting 4 times...CC twice. :wink:

So I guess Roy's the better overall pitcher right.

I wish i could ball my fist up comee close to your face and punch your teeth out. Gosh go suck ROY Halladay off since you love him so much, He can get voting for 20 Cy Youngs, but you know what He'll never win a world series WITH TORONTO.

[JBH3]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

I wish i could ball my fist up comee close to your face and punch your teeth out. Gosh go suck ROY Halladay off since you love him so much, He can get voting for 20 Cy Youngs, but you know what He'll never win a world series WITH TORONTO.

lol...uh...ok...Your a tough guy.

Never win a WS, because it's solely dependent on him that his team wins a world series. Seeing as -- at the most -- he could decide two games out of 7.

You're not going to last long here at all.

[rsox]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

Wins
Halladay: 139
Sabathia: 121
Advantage: Halladay

Losses
Halladay: 67
Sabathia: 76
Advantage: Halladay

ERA
Halladay: 3.49
Sabathia: 3.65
Advantage: Halladay

Complete Games
Halladay: 41
Sabathia: 28
Advantage: Halladay

Shutouts
Halladay: 11
Sabathia: 11
Tie

Innings Pitched
Halladay: 1875.2
Sabathia: 1722.1
Advantage: Halladay

Hits
Halladay: 1826
Sabathia: 1592
Advantage: Sabathia

Runs
Halladay: 811
Sabathia: 757
Advantage: Sabathia

Earned Runs
Halladay: 727
Sabathia: 698
Advantage: Sabathia

Home Runs allowed
Halladay: 155
Sabathia: 153
Advantage: Sabathia

Walks Allowed
Halladay: 428
Sabathia: 544
Advantage: Halladay

Strikeouts
Halladay: 1344
Sabathia: 1437
Advantage: Sabathia

WHIP
Halladay: 1.20
Sabathia: 1.24
Advantage: Halladay

Batting Average Against
Halladay: .254
Sabathia: .246
Advantage: Sabathia

K/9
Halladay: 6.45
Sabathia: 7.51
Advantage: Sabathia

K/BB
Halladay: 3.14
Sabathia: 2.64
Advantage: Halladay

Opponents OBP
Halladay: .300
Sabathia: .308
Advantage: Halladay

Opponents SLG
Halladay: .374
Sabathia: .377
Advantage: Halladay

Opponents OPS
Halladay: .672
Sabathia: .683
Advantage: Halladay

Halladay comes out on top in 11 of 19 catagories (though some only slightly) so statistically speaking Halladay is the better pitcher.

[snepp]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

Valid point. I was more or less just arguing the fact that he thought Maddux having more career K's than Young made him a strikeout pitcher.

I understood the point you were making, I'm just giving you a hard time.

[Ewing]

Re: Best Pitcher in the Majors

I wish i could ball my fist up comee close to your face and punch your teeth out. Gosh go suck ROY Halladay off since you love him so much