Joe Torre is an....

[Sandman42]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

To be fair Karsay battled injuries his entire career, not just with the Yankees. And Quantrill was getting heavy work loads in Toronto and Los Angeles, not just the Yankees. Sturtze throwing 78 innings in relief in 2005 could not have been any worse than throwing 224 innings as a starter in an 18 loss 2002 campaign with the Devil Rays.

Torre definitely over uses his bullpen at times but he did not ruin any of these guys.

He didn't ruin Sturtze. He always sucked. I had no idea why Joe used him as much as he did.

[twiztiddarkangelman]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

The weakest part of Torre's game has always been his use of the pitching staff. He may not be the worst at it. But he's in the discussion.

[ryan36]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

Really? I always thought he was ok. But except for like 1 year of success with the braves he never won without a 200 mil payroll or so...

[NYJets]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

Really? I always thought he was ok. But except for like 1 year of success with the braves he never won without a 200 mil payroll or so...

He's doing pretty good with the Dodgers.

[ehh]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

But except for like 1 year of success with the braves he never won without a 200 mil payroll or so...

Actually he never won with a $200m payroll.


1996 Yankees - 53 million
1998 Yankees - 64 million
1999 Yankees - 89 million
2000 Yankees - 93 million

[ryan36]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

Touche. Were those Cashman GM'd teams or Watson?

[Misfit]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

The 200 million number is kind of arbitrary, I took the point to be he never won without being at the helm of the team that spent the most money. In 1996, the difference in cost between the Yankees payroll and the Brewers was 81% of the Yankees total payroll. In 2009 it was 82% (Florida being the lowest). As the Yankees payroll went up through the late 90's and into the 2000's so did the rest of the league.

I would argue its unfair to penalize Torre much for the circumstance. A lot of guys before him lead expensive Yankees teams to no where. The Yankee Dynasty had home growm guys at key positions, supplemented by capable veterans. It wasn't until the turn of the millenium that Steinbrenner became obsessed with replacing every minor (and sometimes major) weakness with an expensive name on the free agent market. He was also really generous with some of the homegrown talent as arbitration years kicked in further fattening the payroll.

[DTX3]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

Actually he never won with a $200m payroll.


1996 Yankees - 53 million
1998 Yankees - 64 million
1999 Yankees - 89 million
2000 Yankees - 93 million

Won with less than 100 million dollar payroll, but never won with more than a 100 million dollar payroll. Good ole Yanks. Thanks again for him, NY.

[ehh]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

Touche. Were those Cashman GM'd teams or Watson?

The core was obviously still Watson's work. Cash took over in '98 and made some good FA moves but technically they're considered Watson's and Stick Michael's teams.

[NYJets]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

The 200 million number is kind of arbitrary, I took the point to be he never won without being at the helm of the team that spent the most money.

Orioles spent the most money in 1998.

[Misfit]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

Then 75% of the time when his team won it had the highest payroll. Though in '98 we're talking about a 200k difference, which is less than the veteran minimum. In a baseball sense, the teams were basically even in terms of payroll.

[rsox]

Re: Joe Torre is an....

I am reminded of the scene in "Major League" when Lou Brown and the GM are are at the Indians spring training complex watching the players arrive and Roger Dorn pulls up;
Lou Brown: "I thought you said we didn't have any high priced talent"
Charlie Donovan: "Forget about Dorn, he's just high priced.

When the Yankees were winning chapionships in the late 90's they did it with a mix of young players who developed into stars and veteran role players. Once they started to play fantasy Baseball and sign every star they could waive a big check at is when they started to either lose to teams with a third of their payroll ('03 Marlins) or get knocked out in the first round of the playoffs.

Torre definitely shined best when had to manage players, not ego's.