Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

**kweiss** · 06-16-2003, 02:51 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Okay, the thing is when you are comparing these two, there is no way you can bring up the total career wins or win percentage. Look at who Nolan Ryan played for. Mets, Angels, Astros, and Rangers. Through his whole 27 year career, he only played on 4 teams that won first place. Through Roger's 19 year career he has played for 8 teams that have won first place. No matter who you are, if you are playing on a losing team, it really makes it hard to have to have a good winning percentage. If Roger had played on the teams Nolan had to play on, there would be no way he would have come close to 300 wins.

**dce1228** · 06-16-2003, 03:34 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I don't know dude, I think you're just looking for a way to keep Nolan in that glorious sheen we've all been taught he belongs in. He played for some very good Astros teams from 1980 to 1989-- the very worst of those teams, the 1987 squad, lost 87 games... and only one of the Angels teams he played for lost more than 90 games.

And besides, winning games for a crappy team is a hallmark of a great pitcher. Many believe Tom Seaver belongs in the top 10 all-time bacuse he won 106 more than he lost pitching mostly for NY Mets teams that just weren't bad but God awful.

I'm tired of defending Clemens though, as I hate him. So I'd like to say Tom Seaver over Roger Clemens over Nolan Ryan. Enough said.

And Nolan never won a CY Young. Only one year, the strike shortened 1981 does he even seem to deserve to. That just doesn't cut it.

**dce1228** · 06-16-2003, 03:34 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I don't know dude, I think you're just looking for a way to keep Nolan in that glorious sheen we've all been taught he belongs in. He played for some very good Astros teams from 1980 to 1989-- the very worst of those teams, the 1987 squad, lost 87 games... and only one of the Angels teams he played for lost more than 90 games.

And besides, winning games for a crappy team is a hallmark of a great pitcher. Many believe Tom Seaver belongs in the top 10 all-time bacuse he won 106 more than he lost pitching mostly for NY Mets teams that just weren't bad but God awful.

I'm tired of defending Clemens though, as I hate him. So I'd like to say Tom Seaver over Roger Clemens over Nolan Ryan. Enough said.

And Nolan never won a CY Young. Only one year, the strike shortened 1981 does he even seem to deserve to. That just doesn't cut it.

**dce1228** · 06-16-2003, 03:34 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I don't know dude, I think you're just looking for a way to keep Nolan in that glorious sheen we've all been taught he belongs in. He played for some very good Astros teams from 1980 to 1989-- the very worst of those teams, the 1987 squad, lost 87 games... and only one of the Angels teams he played for lost more than 90 games.

And besides, winning games for a crappy team is a hallmark of a great pitcher. Many believe Tom Seaver belongs in the top 10 all-time bacuse he won 106 more than he lost pitching mostly for NY Mets teams that just weren't bad but God awful.

I'm tired of defending Clemens though, as I hate him. So I'd like to say Tom Seaver over Roger Clemens over Nolan Ryan. Enough said.

And Nolan never won a CY Young. Only one year, the strike shortened 1981 does he even seem to deserve to. That just doesn't cut it.

**ehh** · 06-16-2003, 04:08 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

7 No-hitters though, THAT'S what I'm looking at... piss on the K's, piss on the walks, 7 no-no's is amazing... I don't know of anybody in this era of baseball that even has 2 of those.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'd take 6 Cy Young awards over 7 no-hitters any day. 7 single games of near perfection versus 6 SEASONS of near perfection. It doesn't even compare. I mean sure a no-hitter is an amazing feat, but by Ryan's next start in the rotation its pretty much worthless. And people who say Ryan is so impressive with strike outs and that makes him better than Clemens....How many 20 K games did Ryan have?

-Wins
Clemens 300/588 vs. Ryan 324/807

-Shutouts
Clemens 45/588 vs. Ryan 61/807

-Complete Games
Clemens 116/588 vs. Ryan 222/807

-IP
Clemens 4156.1 vs. Ryan 5286.0

-Strike Outs
Clemens 4,006 vs. Ryan 5,714

-Walks
Clemens 1347 vs. Ryan 2795

-Career ERA
Clemens 3.17 vs. Ryan 3.19

-Best Single Seasons
Clemens - 1986 MVP, 24-4, 10 CG, 1 SO, 2.48 ERA, 238 K's to 67 BB, 254 IP

Ryan (tough decision, prolly have to go w/ 1973)
21-16, ML record 383 K's, 162 BB, 2.87 ERA, ML best 332.2 IP

Basic Career Resumes

Roger Clemens 6'4 238lbs
- Three teams in 20 ML seasons (BOS,TOR,NYY)
- 1986 AL MVP
- 300+ career wins
- .659 career winning %
- 2 Time World Series Champion ('99, '00 w/ NYY)
- 6-time Cy Young award winner ('86,'87,'91,'97,'98,'01)
- 1986 All-Star game MVP
- Named to All-Century team (1999)
- Zero no-hitters
- Zero perfect games
- Led Majors in K's twice ('88,'91)
- Led Majors in Wins four times ('86,'87,'87,'98)
- Led Majors in ERA 1.93 (1990)
- Led Majors in Shutouts four times ('87,'88,'90,'92)
- Led Majors in CG 1987
- Led Majors in IP twice ('91,'97)

Nolan Ryan

- 4 teams 27 seasons (HOU, NYM, TEX, CAL)
- Holds ML record for career K's (5,714)
- Holds ML record for single season K's (383)
- All-Century team (1999)
- World Series Champion (1969 - NYM)
- Won 324 career games
- Led ML in CG once ('77)
- Led ML in shutouts 3 times ('72,'76,'79)
- Led ML in IP once (1974)
- Led ML in BB seven times
- Led ML in K's seven times
- Led ML in wins zero times
- Led ML in loses once ('76)
- Led ML in ERA once ('81)
- 7 career no-hitters (ML record)
- Zero Cy Young awards

Hmmm, looking at those numbers I have no idea how people can say it's not close. I think Clemens is a better pitcher than Ryan and pretty handily. I mean how can a "legend" never lead the ML in wins for one single season or win ONE Cy young out of 27 seasons!? And don't give me that "he was on a bad team" crap because Toronto wasn't anything special when Clemens won consecutive Cy Young awards. I'm really not a big Clemens fan but Ryan is the most overated pitcher in the post WWII era.

Plus for all you Nolan strikeout fans....

**CLEMENS HAD A BETTER STRIKEOUT/PER INNINGS PITCHED RATIO THAN NOLAN RYAN**

**ehh** · 06-16-2003, 04:08 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

7 No-hitters though, THAT'S what I'm looking at... piss on the K's, piss on the walks, 7 no-no's is amazing... I don't know of anybody in this era of baseball that even has 2 of those.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'd take 6 Cy Young awards over 7 no-hitters any day. 7 single games of near perfection versus 6 SEASONS of near perfection. It doesn't even compare. I mean sure a no-hitter is an amazing feat, but by Ryan's next start in the rotation its pretty much worthless. And people who say Ryan is so impressive with strike outs and that makes him better than Clemens....How many 20 K games did Ryan have?

-Wins
Clemens 300/588 vs. Ryan 324/807

-Shutouts
Clemens 45/588 vs. Ryan 61/807

-Complete Games
Clemens 116/588 vs. Ryan 222/807

-IP
Clemens 4156.1 vs. Ryan 5286.0

-Strike Outs
Clemens 4,006 vs. Ryan 5,714

-Walks
Clemens 1347 vs. Ryan 2795

-Career ERA
Clemens 3.17 vs. Ryan 3.19

-Best Single Seasons
Clemens - 1986 MVP, 24-4, 10 CG, 1 SO, 2.48 ERA, 238 K's to 67 BB, 254 IP

Ryan (tough decision, prolly have to go w/ 1973)
21-16, ML record 383 K's, 162 BB, 2.87 ERA, ML best 332.2 IP

Basic Career Resumes

Roger Clemens 6'4 238lbs
- Three teams in 20 ML seasons (BOS,TOR,NYY)
- 1986 AL MVP
- 300+ career wins
- .659 career winning %
- 2 Time World Series Champion ('99, '00 w/ NYY)
- 6-time Cy Young award winner ('86,'87,'91,'97,'98,'01)
- 1986 All-Star game MVP
- Named to All-Century team (1999)
- Zero no-hitters
- Zero perfect games
- Led Majors in K's twice ('88,'91)
- Led Majors in Wins four times ('86,'87,'87,'98)
- Led Majors in ERA 1.93 (1990)
- Led Majors in Shutouts four times ('87,'88,'90,'92)
- Led Majors in CG 1987
- Led Majors in IP twice ('91,'97)

Nolan Ryan

- 4 teams 27 seasons (HOU, NYM, TEX, CAL)
- Holds ML record for career K's (5,714)
- Holds ML record for single season K's (383)
- All-Century team (1999)
- World Series Champion (1969 - NYM)
- Won 324 career games
- Led ML in CG once ('77)
- Led ML in shutouts 3 times ('72,'76,'79)
- Led ML in IP once (1974)
- Led ML in BB seven times
- Led ML in K's seven times
- Led ML in wins zero times
- Led ML in loses once ('76)
- Led ML in ERA once ('81)
- 7 career no-hitters (ML record)
- Zero Cy Young awards

Hmmm, looking at those numbers I have no idea how people can say it's not close. I think Clemens is a better pitcher than Ryan and pretty handily. I mean how can a "legend" never lead the ML in wins for one single season or win ONE Cy young out of 27 seasons!? And don't give me that "he was on a bad team" crap because Toronto wasn't anything special when Clemens won consecutive Cy Young awards. I'm really not a big Clemens fan but Ryan is the most overated pitcher in the post WWII era.

Plus for all you Nolan strikeout fans....

**CLEMENS HAD A BETTER STRIKEOUT/PER INNINGS PITCHED RATIO THAN NOLAN RYAN**

**ehh** · 06-16-2003, 04:08 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

7 No-hitters though, THAT'S what I'm looking at... piss on the K's, piss on the walks, 7 no-no's is amazing... I don't know of anybody in this era of baseball that even has 2 of those.

<hr /></blockquote>

I'd take 6 Cy Young awards over 7 no-hitters any day. 7 single games of near perfection versus 6 SEASONS of near perfection. It doesn't even compare. I mean sure a no-hitter is an amazing feat, but by Ryan's next start in the rotation its pretty much worthless. And people who say Ryan is so impressive with strike outs and that makes him better than Clemens....How many 20 K games did Ryan have?

-Wins
Clemens 300/588 vs. Ryan 324/807

-Shutouts
Clemens 45/588 vs. Ryan 61/807

-Complete Games
Clemens 116/588 vs. Ryan 222/807

-IP
Clemens 4156.1 vs. Ryan 5286.0

-Strike Outs
Clemens 4,006 vs. Ryan 5,714

-Walks
Clemens 1347 vs. Ryan 2795

-Career ERA
Clemens 3.17 vs. Ryan 3.19

-Best Single Seasons
Clemens - 1986 MVP, 24-4, 10 CG, 1 SO, 2.48 ERA, 238 K's to 67 BB, 254 IP

Ryan (tough decision, prolly have to go w/ 1973)
21-16, ML record 383 K's, 162 BB, 2.87 ERA, ML best 332.2 IP

Basic Career Resumes

Roger Clemens 6'4 238lbs
- Three teams in 20 ML seasons (BOS,TOR,NYY)
- 1986 AL MVP
- 300+ career wins
- .659 career winning %
- 2 Time World Series Champion ('99, '00 w/ NYY)
- 6-time Cy Young award winner ('86,'87,'91,'97,'98,'01)
- 1986 All-Star game MVP
- Named to All-Century team (1999)
- Zero no-hitters
- Zero perfect games
- Led Majors in K's twice ('88,'91)
- Led Majors in Wins four times ('86,'87,'87,'98)
- Led Majors in ERA 1.93 (1990)
- Led Majors in Shutouts four times ('87,'88,'90,'92)
- Led Majors in CG 1987
- Led Majors in IP twice ('91,'97)

Nolan Ryan

- 4 teams 27 seasons (HOU, NYM, TEX, CAL)
- Holds ML record for career K's (5,714)
- Holds ML record for single season K's (383)
- All-Century team (1999)
- World Series Champion (1969 - NYM)
- Won 324 career games
- Led ML in CG once ('77)
- Led ML in shutouts 3 times ('72,'76,'79)
- Led ML in IP once (1974)
- Led ML in BB seven times
- Led ML in K's seven times
- Led ML in wins zero times
- Led ML in loses once ('76)
- Led ML in ERA once ('81)
- 7 career no-hitters (ML record)
- Zero Cy Young awards

Hmmm, looking at those numbers I have no idea how people can say it's not close. I think Clemens is a better pitcher than Ryan and pretty handily. I mean how can a "legend" never lead the ML in wins for one single season or win ONE Cy young out of 27 seasons!? And don't give me that "he was on a bad team" crap because Toronto wasn't anything special when Clemens won consecutive Cy Young awards. I'm really not a big Clemens fan but Ryan is the most overated pitcher in the post WWII era.

Plus for all you Nolan strikeout fans....

**CLEMENS HAD A BETTER STRIKEOUT/PER INNINGS PITCHED RATIO THAN NOLAN RYAN**

**dce1228** · 06-16-2003, 04:37 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I was reading recently that Roger said he never thought he'd get a no-hitter because he threw too many strikes. Judging by some of Nolan's 200 BB seasons (Jesus!) no wonder he threw so many no-hitters...

... but seriously, juding a pitcher's total worth on no-hitter's is like saying the guy who had the most 5 hit games is the best hitter of all time or that the guy who hit the most 500 foot HRs is the greatest slugger of all time. It's just silly.

And I guess that since Bud Smith and Jose Jimenez have no-no's that they're better pitchers than not only Roger Clemens, but Lefty Grove, Steve Carlton, and Pedro Martinez.

**dce1228** · 06-16-2003, 04:37 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I was reading recently that Roger said he never thought he'd get a no-hitter because he threw too many strikes. Judging by some of Nolan's 200 BB seasons (Jesus!) no wonder he threw so many no-hitters...

... but seriously, juding a pitcher's total worth on no-hitter's is like saying the guy who had the most 5 hit games is the best hitter of all time or that the guy who hit the most 500 foot HRs is the greatest slugger of all time. It's just silly.

And I guess that since Bud Smith and Jose Jimenez have no-no's that they're better pitchers than not only Roger Clemens, but Lefty Grove, Steve Carlton, and Pedro Martinez.

**dce1228** · 06-16-2003, 04:37 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I was reading recently that Roger said he never thought he'd get a no-hitter because he threw too many strikes. Judging by some of Nolan's 200 BB seasons (Jesus!) no wonder he threw so many no-hitters...

... but seriously, juding a pitcher's total worth on no-hitter's is like saying the guy who had the most 5 hit games is the best hitter of all time or that the guy who hit the most 500 foot HRs is the greatest slugger of all time. It's just silly.

And I guess that since Bud Smith and Jose Jimenez have no-no's that they're better pitchers than not only Roger Clemens, but Lefty Grove, Steve Carlton, and Pedro Martinez.

**kcscotty** · 06-16-2003, 05:26 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Boy, this is a good one!

I think Nolan was a little more dominant, but Clemens was probably a better "pitcher" over his career. The fact that Roger K'd 20 and walked no one in the same game twice is pretty impressive.

However, what is the next thing you think about after the pitching?

Clemens - throwing bat at Piazza
Ryan - beating the crap out of Robin Ventura

It's a tossup!

**kcscotty** · 06-16-2003, 05:26 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Boy, this is a good one!

I think Nolan was a little more dominant, but Clemens was probably a better "pitcher" over his career. The fact that Roger K'd 20 and walked no one in the same game twice is pretty impressive.

However, what is the next thing you think about after the pitching?

Clemens - throwing bat at Piazza
Ryan - beating the crap out of Robin Ventura

It's a tossup!

**kcscotty** · 06-16-2003, 05:26 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Boy, this is a good one!

I think Nolan was a little more dominant, but Clemens was probably a better "pitcher" over his career. The fact that Roger K'd 20 and walked no one in the same game twice is pretty impressive.

However, what is the next thing you think about after the pitching?

Clemens - throwing bat at Piazza
Ryan - beating the crap out of Robin Ventura

It's a tossup!

**kweiss** · 06-16-2003, 06:08 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
However, what is the next thing you think about after the pitching?

Clemens - throwing bat at Piazza
Ryan - beating the crap out of Robin Ventura

It's a tossup!

<hr /></blockquote>

I think Nolan Ryan gets the edge on that one.

**kweiss** · 06-16-2003, 06:08 PM

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
However, what is the next thing you think about after the pitching?

Clemens - throwing bat at Piazza
Ryan - beating the crap out of Robin Ventura

It's a tossup!

<hr /></blockquote>

I think Nolan Ryan gets the edge on that one.

Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

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