Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

JubJub: Excellent reasoning behind your statment!! The stats don't seem to back it up though. This has been an interesting topic. Good stuff thrown in the mix from both sides.

[dce1228]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Yes, though I'd love to open up to debate who was is the best when you add Maddux and Pedro to the mix. I guess I feel dirty for arguing Clemens' case when I hate the guy, but I just think, rather I know, that Nolan Ryan is way overrated. But, oh well.

On a side note, regarding K's and opponents batting average... Kerry Wood is leading the NL with 119 K's, his opponents are batting .204, he plays on a first place team... yet his record is 5wins 5loses. Yes, he gets inconsistent support, but having followed his games (he's on my fantasy team), I know he has trouble focusing in tight situations and getting the W. If Nolan Ryan were pitching today this is what, or who, he'd be. Kerry Wood.

Now if Kerry can deny science and evolution and pitch until he's 44 and K people at the rate he's been doing so, yet never learn to win consistantly and win a CY Young, would that make him better than Roger Clemens?? Essentially, in spite of his W/L record, do y'all think he's the best pitcher this year?

[dce1228]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Yes, though I'd love to open up to debate who was is the best when you add Maddux and Pedro to the mix. I guess I feel dirty for arguing Clemens' case when I hate the guy, but I just think, rather I know, that Nolan Ryan is way overrated. But, oh well.

On a side note, regarding K's and opponents batting average... Kerry Wood is leading the NL with 119 K's, his opponents are batting .204, he plays on a first place team... yet his record is 5wins 5loses. Yes, he gets inconsistent support, but having followed his games (he's on my fantasy team), I know he has trouble focusing in tight situations and getting the W. If Nolan Ryan were pitching today this is what, or who, he'd be. Kerry Wood.

Now if Kerry can deny science and evolution and pitch until he's 44 and K people at the rate he's been doing so, yet never learn to win consistantly and win a CY Young, would that make him better than Roger Clemens?? Essentially, in spite of his W/L record, do y'all think he's the best pitcher this year?

[dce1228]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Yes, though I'd love to open up to debate who was is the best when you add Maddux and Pedro to the mix. I guess I feel dirty for arguing Clemens' case when I hate the guy, but I just think, rather I know, that Nolan Ryan is way overrated. But, oh well.

On a side note, regarding K's and opponents batting average... Kerry Wood is leading the NL with 119 K's, his opponents are batting .204, he plays on a first place team... yet his record is 5wins 5loses. Yes, he gets inconsistent support, but having followed his games (he's on my fantasy team), I know he has trouble focusing in tight situations and getting the W. If Nolan Ryan were pitching today this is what, or who, he'd be. Kerry Wood.

Now if Kerry can deny science and evolution and pitch until he's 44 and K people at the rate he's been doing so, yet never learn to win consistantly and win a CY Young, would that make him better than Roger Clemens?? Essentially, in spite of his W/L record, do y'all think he's the best pitcher this year?

[Redfield]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Excellent thread guys, good arguements from both sides.

[Redfield]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Excellent thread guys, good arguements from both sides.

[Redfield]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Excellent thread guys, good arguements from both sides.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

DCE - Peter Gammons last night brought up who he thought the top 10 or so pitchers were. He didn't mention all of them though. He said Clemens falls in the 6-8 slot. His top 3 were:

Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson

However he did mention if it came down to 1 game, he'd take any of those 3 with Maddux, Pedro and Randy not far behind.

No mention of Ryan. Not a real surprise to me since Ryan's overrated..

The best pitcher this year? Kerry Wood really isn't in the running IMO. I'd go with Kevin Brown and not far behind him: Esteban Loaiza. Both have WHIP's right around 1 and both have outstanding ERA's.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

DCE - Peter Gammons last night brought up who he thought the top 10 or so pitchers were. He didn't mention all of them though. He said Clemens falls in the 6-8 slot. His top 3 were:

Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson

However he did mention if it came down to 1 game, he'd take any of those 3 with Maddux, Pedro and Randy not far behind.

No mention of Ryan. Not a real surprise to me since Ryan's overrated..

The best pitcher this year? Kerry Wood really isn't in the running IMO. I'd go with Kevin Brown and not far behind him: Esteban Loaiza. Both have WHIP's right around 1 and both have outstanding ERA's.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

DCE - Peter Gammons last night brought up who he thought the top 10 or so pitchers were. He didn't mention all of them though. He said Clemens falls in the 6-8 slot. His top 3 were:

Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson

However he did mention if it came down to 1 game, he'd take any of those 3 with Maddux, Pedro and Randy not far behind.

No mention of Ryan. Not a real surprise to me since Ryan's overrated..

The best pitcher this year? Kerry Wood really isn't in the running IMO. I'd go with Kevin Brown and not far behind him: Esteban Loaiza. Both have WHIP's right around 1 and both have outstanding ERA's.

[Redfield]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Peter Gammons last night brought up who he thought the top 10 or so pitchers were. He didn't mention all of them though. He said Clemens falls in the 6-8 slot. His top 3 were:

Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I saw that last night as well, and I agree with Gammons. Clemens falls somewhere between 6-8 on the all-time list IMO.

[Redfield]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Peter Gammons last night brought up who he thought the top 10 or so pitchers were. He didn't mention all of them though. He said Clemens falls in the 6-8 slot. His top 3 were:

Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I saw that last night as well, and I agree with Gammons. Clemens falls somewhere between 6-8 on the all-time list IMO.

[Redfield]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Peter Gammons last night brought up who he thought the top 10 or so pitchers were. He didn't mention all of them though. He said Clemens falls in the 6-8 slot. His top 3 were:

Walter Johnson
Tom Seaver
Bob Gibson


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I saw that last night as well, and I agree with Gammons. Clemens falls somewhere between 6-8 on the all-time list IMO.

[dce1228]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I remember back in the NLCS of 1986 when the Astros were going against the Mets' how Mike Scott, of the scuffed splitter, even Bob Knepper, were more imposing than Nolan Ryan in spite of his over-whelming physcial ability, because you always knew if you could stay close that someone was going to get a big fly off Ryan or he would walk two people and a sac bunt and sac fly later there'd be a run. As a pitcher he just would not GIVE IN. It makes him a great folk hero, but it also makes him a flawed pitcher.

If anything this thread helps to illuminate the way so many baseball fans mis-interpret the statistics of the game.
You cannot ignore the immense ammount of walks Ryan allowed and you must draw the correlation between those and his higher ERA relative to the other pitchers of his day and that to his poor winning percentage and that to his complete lack of Cy Young awards. You must!

Though personally, Clemens is way too volatile (89' playoffs come to mind) for me to go with him in a one game must win situation. Personally I think he's overrated too, but better than Ryan. My guy is Tom Seaver. Or Greg Maddux.

[dce1228]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

I remember back in the NLCS of 1986 when the Astros were going against the Mets' how Mike Scott, of the scuffed splitter, even Bob Knepper, were more imposing than Nolan Ryan in spite of his over-whelming physcial ability, because you always knew if you could stay close that someone was going to get a big fly off Ryan or he would walk two people and a sac bunt and sac fly later there'd be a run. As a pitcher he just would not GIVE IN. It makes him a great folk hero, but it also makes him a flawed pitcher.

If anything this thread helps to illuminate the way so many baseball fans mis-interpret the statistics of the game.
You cannot ignore the immense ammount of walks Ryan allowed and you must draw the correlation between those and his higher ERA relative to the other pitchers of his day and that to his poor winning percentage and that to his complete lack of Cy Young awards. You must!

Though personally, Clemens is way too volatile (89' playoffs come to mind) for me to go with him in a one game must win situation. Personally I think he's overrated too, but better than Ryan. My guy is Tom Seaver. Or Greg Maddux.