Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Many baseball statisticians make the claim that Nolan Ryan is the most overrated pitcher in baseball history. I'm not sure what to think (except I don't think Ryan was as good as the platform many put him on - still a great pitcher though. Reason being: the league was more of a pitcher's league when Ryan played - hence the low league ERA compared to today's league ERA).

I did come across this bit of information from one of these statisticians who I have great respect for.

The top 25 modern day pitchers:

PLAYER....................IP...........ERA........ ..LEAGUE ERA

25 - Roberts, Robin - 4688 - 3.41 - 3.86
24 - Mussina, Mike - 2454 - 3.54 - 4.57
23 - Koufax, Sandy - 2324 - 2.76 - 3.63
22 - Ryan, Nolan - 5386 - 3.19 - 3.57
21 - Glavine, Tom - 3119 - 3.37 - 4.13
20 - Drysdale, Don - 3432 - 2.95 - 3.57
19 - Jenkins, Fergie - 4500 - 3.34 - 3.85
18 - Willis, Vic - 3996 - 2.63 - 3.1
17 - Marichal, Juan - 3507 - 2.89 - 3.52
16 - Brown, Kevin - 2840 - 3.22 - 4.14
15 - Carlton, Steve - 5217 - 3.22 - 3.7
14 - Newhouser, Hal - 2993 - 3.06 - 3.97
13 - Feller, Bob - 3827 - 3.25 - 3.97
12 - Niekro, Phil - 5404 - 3.35 - 3.85
11 - Blyleven, Bert - 4970 - 3.31 - 3.9
10 - Perry, Gaylord - 5350 - 3.11 - 3.63
9 - Ford, Whitey - 3170 - 2.75 - 3.63
8 - Martinez, Pedro - 1892.33 - 2.62 - 4.48
7 - Palmer, Jim - 3948 - 2.86 - 3.58
6 - Spahn, Warren - 5243 - 3.09 - 3.65
5 - Gibson, Bob - 3884 - 2.91 - 3.7
4 - Johnson, Randy - 3008.33 - 3.06 - 4.42
3 - Seaver, Tom - 4782 - 2.86 - 3.64
2 - Maddux, Greg - 3750.33 - 2.83 - 4.12
1 - Clemens, Roger - 4067 - 3.15 - 4.49

This is just a representation of how the pitcher fared against the league ERA. Obviously it doesn't take everything into consideration. Just thought this might spark some interesting conversation since Ryan is always proclaimed the better pitcher, but Clemens has a very good argument that he's the better pitcher (Trust me, I hate saying that since I despise the Yankees)...

[andy]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

i tend to agree but how many career walks does roger and nolan have? how about their career winning percentage? im not sure who has the better winning percentage

[andy]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

i tend to agree but how many career walks does roger and nolan have? how about their career winning percentage? im not sure who has the better winning percentage

[andy]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

i tend to agree but how many career walks does roger and nolan have? how about their career winning percentage? im not sure who has the better winning percentage

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Andy - Good point. While Ryan has the most K's ever, he also has the most walks (1000 some in front of the guy in 2nd).

Nolan Ryan

Career Win Pctg: .526
Career Walks: 2795

Roger Clemens:

Career Win Pctg: .660
Career Walks: 1321

If you look deeper into the stats, Ryan really pitched some spectacular games, but overall his career wasn't as good as some might suspect.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Andy - Good point. While Ryan has the most K's ever, he also has the most walks (1000 some in front of the guy in 2nd).

Nolan Ryan

Career Win Pctg: .526
Career Walks: 2795

Roger Clemens:

Career Win Pctg: .660
Career Walks: 1321

If you look deeper into the stats, Ryan really pitched some spectacular games, but overall his career wasn't as good as some might suspect.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

Andy - Good point. While Ryan has the most K's ever, he also has the most walks (1000 some in front of the guy in 2nd).

Nolan Ryan

Career Win Pctg: .526
Career Walks: 2795

Roger Clemens:

Career Win Pctg: .660
Career Walks: 1321

If you look deeper into the stats, Ryan really pitched some spectacular games, but overall his career wasn't as good as some might suspect.

[moosereihl]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

nolan ryan is overated because strikeouts are overated. that said he is still a great pitcher. a casual fan would just look at the numbers and assume that nolan had a better carreer than clemens. a closer look reveals otherwise and that is why actual baseball poeple don't plave ryan on the same level as rocket. fist off a strikeout is no better than a bround out or flyout. it is still an out. then you have to take into account how many more batters ryan has walked then clemens. that number is proportionatly a lot larger than the strikeout edge that ryan owns. another thing to factor in is that ryan pitched in a lot of four man rotations as that was the custom of the day while clemens has always pitched in a five man rotation. then you have to consider that ryan pitched in a more pitcher friendly era than the one clemens pitched in and he also spent a lot of time in rthe national league which is the more pitcher friendly league. the no hitters look great on a resume but how much do singular regular season games factor into this debate when we are talking about who had the greater career. they have both had a lot of great single games, but here we are looking at what they have been able to do year in and year out over there entire career. all that said, i still feel they are both great picther, but i give roger tyhe edge because of what he has been able to accomplish in the era that he has accomlish it. oh, and when i hear poeple say that he can't complete a game anymore and things of that nature, that just shows me their limited knoweledge of baseball. he is still always among the league leaders in innings and pitches deep into a lot of game. the reason he doesn't complete game anymore is by design, not because of his inabilty to. if the yankees weren't more focused on saving him for the post season and they didn't have a closer like rivera, i'm sure he's still log the occassional complete game.

[moosereihl]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

nolan ryan is overated because strikeouts are overated. that said he is still a great pitcher. a casual fan would just look at the numbers and assume that nolan had a better carreer than clemens. a closer look reveals otherwise and that is why actual baseball poeple don't plave ryan on the same level as rocket. fist off a strikeout is no better than a bround out or flyout. it is still an out. then you have to take into account how many more batters ryan has walked then clemens. that number is proportionatly a lot larger than the strikeout edge that ryan owns. another thing to factor in is that ryan pitched in a lot of four man rotations as that was the custom of the day while clemens has always pitched in a five man rotation. then you have to consider that ryan pitched in a more pitcher friendly era than the one clemens pitched in and he also spent a lot of time in rthe national league which is the more pitcher friendly league. the no hitters look great on a resume but how much do singular regular season games factor into this debate when we are talking about who had the greater career. they have both had a lot of great single games, but here we are looking at what they have been able to do year in and year out over there entire career. all that said, i still feel they are both great picther, but i give roger tyhe edge because of what he has been able to accomplish in the era that he has accomlish it. oh, and when i hear poeple say that he can't complete a game anymore and things of that nature, that just shows me their limited knoweledge of baseball. he is still always among the league leaders in innings and pitches deep into a lot of game. the reason he doesn't complete game anymore is by design, not because of his inabilty to. if the yankees weren't more focused on saving him for the post season and they didn't have a closer like rivera, i'm sure he's still log the occassional complete game.

[moosereihl]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

nolan ryan is overated because strikeouts are overated. that said he is still a great pitcher. a casual fan would just look at the numbers and assume that nolan had a better carreer than clemens. a closer look reveals otherwise and that is why actual baseball poeple don't plave ryan on the same level as rocket. fist off a strikeout is no better than a bround out or flyout. it is still an out. then you have to take into account how many more batters ryan has walked then clemens. that number is proportionatly a lot larger than the strikeout edge that ryan owns. another thing to factor in is that ryan pitched in a lot of four man rotations as that was the custom of the day while clemens has always pitched in a five man rotation. then you have to consider that ryan pitched in a more pitcher friendly era than the one clemens pitched in and he also spent a lot of time in rthe national league which is the more pitcher friendly league. the no hitters look great on a resume but how much do singular regular season games factor into this debate when we are talking about who had the greater career. they have both had a lot of great single games, but here we are looking at what they have been able to do year in and year out over there entire career. all that said, i still feel they are both great picther, but i give roger tyhe edge because of what he has been able to accomplish in the era that he has accomlish it. oh, and when i hear poeple say that he can't complete a game anymore and things of that nature, that just shows me their limited knoweledge of baseball. he is still always among the league leaders in innings and pitches deep into a lot of game. the reason he doesn't complete game anymore is by design, not because of his inabilty to. if the yankees weren't more focused on saving him for the post season and they didn't have a closer like rivera, i'm sure he's still log the occassional complete game.

[MSRoble33]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
fist off a strikeout is no better than a bround out or flyout. it is still an out.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In a way, you're right... but people can still score off a groundout.. K's are important in certain situations. Other they aren't...

7 No-hitters though, THAT'S what I'm looking at... piss on the K's, piss on the walks, 7 no-no's is amazing... I don't know of anybody in this era of baseball that even has 2 of those. Both are great pitchers, but I'm still going to go with Ryan over Rocket, mainly because Rocket can never finish a game... I can't even remember the last time the guy went the distance. I'm a fan of roger, don't get me wrong, but Ryan is a legend!

[MSRoble33]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
fist off a strikeout is no better than a bround out or flyout. it is still an out.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In a way, you're right... but people can still score off a groundout.. K's are important in certain situations. Other they aren't...

7 No-hitters though, THAT'S what I'm looking at... piss on the K's, piss on the walks, 7 no-no's is amazing... I don't know of anybody in this era of baseball that even has 2 of those. Both are great pitchers, but I'm still going to go with Ryan over Rocket, mainly because Rocket can never finish a game... I can't even remember the last time the guy went the distance. I'm a fan of roger, don't get me wrong, but Ryan is a legend!

[MSRoble33]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
fist off a strikeout is no better than a bround out or flyout. it is still an out.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

In a way, you're right... but people can still score off a groundout.. K's are important in certain situations. Other they aren't...

7 No-hitters though, THAT'S what I'm looking at... piss on the K's, piss on the walks, 7 no-no's is amazing... I don't know of anybody in this era of baseball that even has 2 of those. Both are great pitchers, but I'm still going to go with Ryan over Rocket, mainly because Rocket can never finish a game... I can't even remember the last time the guy went the distance. I'm a fan of roger, don't get me wrong, but Ryan is a legend!

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

The 7 no hitter's are amazing, but when it comes down to it, they're meaningless too. The more I look at the numbers the more I realize that Ryan's legend is based on the no-hitters and other accolades he recieved and not the stats. Many people don't take the time to look deeply into the stats which show a different side than what most people think of when they hear the name Nolan Ryan. Don't get me wrong, he was a great pitcher, but so is the Rocket.

[mjb2124]

Re: Roger better than Nolan Ryan?

The 7 no hitter's are amazing, but when it comes down to it, they're meaningless too. The more I look at the numbers the more I realize that Ryan's legend is based on the no-hitters and other accolades he recieved and not the stats. Many people don't take the time to look deeply into the stats which show a different side than what most people think of when they hear the name Nolan Ryan. Don't get me wrong, he was a great pitcher, but so is the Rocket.