Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Santana definitely played at a HOF level for a good 5 years. Getting to watch him pitch for the Twins every 5 days was a real treat. We don't get that kind of player very often. He didn't sustain it for nearly long enough because of injury, so he shouldn't be in.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Santana definitely played at a HOF level for a good 5 years. Getting to watch him pitch for the Twins every 5 days was a real treat. We don't get that kind of player very often. He didn't sustain it for nearly long enough because of injury, so he shouldn't be in.

I think the answer is that he didn't do it in the post-season like Koufax did, but why the heck does he not get the HOF consideration for his run that was similar to Koufax's? There was never a question that Koufax was going in...he had to quit early due to injury and only had 5 really HOF level seasons. Not that it's a shock, but it's pretty inconsistent.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think the answer is that he didn't do it in the post-season like Koufax did, but why the heck does he not get the HOF consideration for his run that was similar to Koufax's? There was never a question that Koufax was going in...he had to quit early due to injury and only had 5 really HOF level seasons. Not that it's a shock, but it's pretty inconsistent.

Because he had his run in Minnesota and by the time he was in his prime, the Twins made the playoffs twice, losing both first rounds. He pitched well in both those series, btw.

His line in the 2004 ALDS against the Yankees is more annoying than I remember. 2 starts, 12 IP, 1 run allowed, 4 walks, 12 Ks. And only got 1 win out of it because he left Game 4 up 5-1 after 5 innings and Juan Rincon **** his pants in the 8th.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Because he had his run in Minnesota and by the time he was in his prime, the Twins made the playoffs twice, losing both first rounds. He pitched well in both those series, btw.

Agreed...it's a shame because he does get overlooked and he was amazing. I remember in 2007 watching him strike out 17 Rangers. They didn't stand a chance.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Probably the best changeup I've ever seen. Batters got comically fooled by it over and over again.

[GreenLightning]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The new HOF ballot has been released and here are the names:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2018.shtml

Here's an interesting note on two players:

Player A:

165 wins, 131 ERA+, 53 WAR

Player B:
139 wins, 136 ERA+, 51 WAR

Player A sailed into the HOF with ease and is considered and all time great. Player B is a player I would have never even considered for the HOF, to be honest. Will be interesting to see how he does...

Spoiler

Player A is Koufax, Player B is Johan Santana

Koufax was great not a lot of wins but totally dominant for a period of time. I think 139 wins is pushing the envelope.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Koufax was great not a lot of wins but totally dominant for a period of time. I think 139 wins is pushing the envelope.

I get it...a few things, however:

1) Koufax was mediocre from 1955-1960, he was good in 1961, and great from 1962-1966. Santana was good in 2002-2003, great from 2004-2008, good in 2009-2010, and then the injuries derailed him. Wins aside, I see a lot of similarities in their careers.

2) I think the argument can be made that Santana was just as valuable over his career from a WAR perspective; he pitched roughly 200 fewer innings than Koufax, and yet his WAR was only 2-3 fewer. I think he could have matched Koufax if he pitched one more season of 200 IP.

My point isn't so much that Koufax shouldn't be in....he absolutely should. It's the fact that Santana won't sniff 75%, let alone the 86% that Koufax got on his first attempt, and yet they were nearly the same pitcher. As mentioned before, I think the factors involved are 1) Koufax dominated on a national stage in 3 World Series (63, 65, 66) and 2) vs Santana's team never making out of the first round and 2) Koufax pitched in Los Angeles for very good teams while Santana pitched for okay teams in Minnesota.

Make Santana a Dodger or a Yankee in 2 or 3 World Series and the discussion is probably different.

[GreenLightning]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Those few big win seasons Koufax has really stand out. Santana doesn't have that but there are pitchers in the HOF far below Koufax so an argument can be made for Santana. Going forward pitchers most likely will not have as many wins in total or by season. Santana is close. Injuries play a part but Mattingly was derailed by injuries too. Santana is a tough call.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think the argument that because Koufax therefore Santana drastically understates the peak years of Sandy Koufax. There are 3 or 4 pitchers in baseball history that have had a peak as dominant as Koufax (and Johan Santana ain't among them). By FIP, WAR or whatever, Koufax has 3 or 4 seasons significantly better than any of Santana's and 3 more seasons roughly at the level of Santana's best.

<iframe src="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe.aspx?config=0&static=0&type=graphsw&num =1&h=450&w=450&players=1007124,755" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" height="450" width = "450" style="border:1px solid black;"></iframe><br /><span style="font-size:9pt;">Source: <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=1007124,755&wg=1">FanGraphs</a> -- <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=755&position=P">Johan Santana</a>, <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1007124&position=P">Sandy Koufax</a></span>

The fact that some of Koufax's worst years (late bloomer and wild thing, remember) are below some of Santana's worst years doesn't bother me.

When you think of GREATNESS as a pitcher, you think of Maddux's consistency, Pedro's virtuosity, Koufax's dominance, Clemens' dirty needle, The Big Unit's unique dominance. Johan had a killer changeup, but he's not among these guys. And if that's the case, then Santana would need to grind/compile his way in and he didn't do that either. Santana is inner-circle in the Hall of Very Good, imo.


EDIT: OS seems to be blocking my graphic above.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think the argument that because Koufax therefore Santana drastically understates the peak years of Sandy Koufax. There are 3 or 4 pitchers in baseball history that have had a peak as dominant as Koufax (and Johan Santana ain't among them). By FIP, WAR or whatever, Koufax has 3 or 4 seasons significantly better than any of Santana's and 3 more seasons roughly at the level of Santana's best.

<iframe src="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphframe.aspx?config=0&static=0&type=graphsw&num =1&h=450&w=450&players=1007124,755" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" height="450" width = "450" style="border:1px solid black;"></iframe><br /><span style="font-size:9pt;">Source: <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=1007124,755&wg=1">FanGraphs</a> -- <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=755&position=P">Johan Santana</a>, <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1007124&position=P">Sandy Koufax</a></span>

The fact that some of Koufax's worst years (late bloomer and wild thing, remember) are below some of Santana's worst years doesn't bother me.

When you think of GREATNESS as a pitcher, you think of Maddux's consistency, Pedro's virtuosity, Koufax's dominance, Clemens' dirty needle, The Big Unit's unique dominance. Johan had a killer changeup, but he's not among these guys. And if that's the case, then Santana would need to grind/compile his way in and he didn't do that either. Santana is inner-circle in the Hall of Very Good, imo.


EDIT: OS seems to be blocking my graphic above.

Fair enough, but if we're going to use WAR to justify Koufax being in the HOF we can't ignore than Santana is basically even in value with him. Who cares if he didn't put up the monster seasons that Koufax did; they literally played the same number of seasons with Koufax pitching 200 more innings and provided the same career value.

I wouldn't fall on my sword to get Santana in the HOF, but I am going to be curious to see how he does on the ballot.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'd put Jack Morris in before Johan, if comparing the two. Not exactly apples and oranges but both are fringe guys and I'd rather have Jack.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Fair enough, but if we're going to use WAR to justify Koufax being in the HOF we can't ignore than Santana is basically even in value with him. Who cares if he didn't put up the monster seasons that Koufax did; they literally played the same number of seasons with Koufax pitching 200 more innings and provided the same career value.

I wouldn't fall on my sword to get Santana in the HOF, but I am going to be curious to see how he does on the ballot.

But this is exactly the point. You have 2 main avenues to the HoF...you can be extremely good/great for 15-20 years and compile a ton of stats to build your case with. Or you can be so frighteningly amazing for a somewhat shorter period of time where even dying young or getting sick or retiring early doesn't prevent entry. The inner circle guys have both--the longevity and the amazing peak.

With Santana, the problem is he's not quite good enough in either capacity. As for the peak performance...he's got three 6-7 WAR seasons and that's good, but not really eye-popping. Remove those and what's left? James Shields or thereabouts. Jake Arrieta has had a 7-WAR season. Kershaw has already had 5 of them. Felix Hernandez has had 3 like that (Felix is a good comp. for Santana, imo). Doc Gooden, who people remember as a flash in the pan, had 4 seasons as good as Santana's best and with 2 seasons wayyy better than anything Santana did. For me Santana fits in better with the Felix Hernandez's and Doc Gooden's and Kevin Brown's. Those that like peak value don't see KOUFAX and Santana the same. Those who rely on long-term compiling of stats are gonna say Johan was too short-lived.

Make no mistake, those 25-30 fewer wins and no World Series berths and lower peak WAR seasons and 10 fewer total WAR (54 WAR for Sandy, 45 WAR for Johan) and 0.5 career ERA difference and 0.75 career FIP difference and lack of mythology etc etc--all that stuff adds up to make a rather large difference between these 2 players.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

On another HOF note, I think it's getting ridiculous this "crusade" to examine all aspects of a person instead of focusing on what they did on the field. The latest example is Chipper Jones. I have read multiple articles this week of HOF voters NOT voting for him because of his tweets or the fact he cheated on multiple wives. A few of the articles called him a "despicable" human being who doesn't belong in the HOF. It's getting out of hand...

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

On another HOF note, I think it's getting ridiculous this "crusade" to examine all aspects of a person instead of focusing on what they did on the field. The latest example is Chipper Jones. I have read multiple articles this week of HOF voters NOT voting for him because of his tweets or the fact he cheated on multiple wives. A few of the articles called him a "despicable" human being who doesn't belong in the HOF. It's getting out of hand...

I get that there's a "character clause" or whatnot, but I don't think regular human failures in someone's personal life is part of the package. Now, if there's something major like the player raped or killed someone or bet on baseball or has a documented history of PEDs, then by all means consider that, too.

Chipper should be a slam dunk. They just don't make switch-hitting, OBP-monsters with tremendous power and longevity 3rd basemen like him. In with no hesitation on my part. I'd be ticked off like I was with Bagwell if Chipper doesn't get in right away.

[GreenLightning]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Regarding the Santana yes or no vote the thing is there are levels of players at every position in the HOF. There might be 20 pitchers maybe who are in the same league as Koufax for all time but just because you can't compare to him does not mean you don't belong.