Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Now that Jorge is retired, does he get in?

some stuff from Pinstripe alley

http://www.pinstripealley.com/2012/2/1/2732384/jorge-posada-hall-of-fame-worthy

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1,091

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68

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Yogi Berra

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.285

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.350

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30

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Roger Bresnahan

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682

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212

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Roy Campanella

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627

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25

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Gary Carter

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Mickey Cochrane

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.320

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.419

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.478

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832

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64

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Bill Dickey

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930

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36

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Buck Ewing

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.303

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.351

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1,625

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883

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1,129

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354

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Rick Ferrell

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.378

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1,692

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Carlton Fisk

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Gabby Hartnett

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867

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Ernie Lombardi

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8

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Ray Schalk

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.253

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.340

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.316

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1,345

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11

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594

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579

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177

</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">Name [Link To Full Stats]</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">AVG</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">OBP</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">SLG</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">HITS</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">HR</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">RBI</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">RUNS</td> <td align="CENTER" bgcolor="#4d3201">SB</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="9" align="CENTER" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> Hall of Fame Catchers


</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Here are Posada's career numbers in the same categories:


<table border="0"></table>Jorge Posada: .273 AVG, .374 OBP, .474 SLG, 1664 HITS, 275 HR, 1065 RBI, 900 RUNS, 20 SB




well looking at that, he SHOULD get in, also theres the 5 championships.


thoughts?

Based on his OPS+ he actually fits right in with that group (121 is Posada's number and Bench, Carter, Campy, etc are all right around there).

A few things:

1) Will be very interested to see what they do with Piazza. For me, he's a NO brainer, and yet there is talk he may not get in. If Piazza doesn't get in, not sure how Posada can.

2) I don't know how much they will hold the fact that he DH'd a lot toward the end of his career and that helped him accumulate some more offensive numbers.

All things considered I think that he goes in someday.

[snepp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think he comes up a little short. Defense counts too, and he was pretty lousy.


That said, I think he probably ends up getting voted in and I wouldn't be too upset about it.

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Jorge will get in probably after a few years on the ballot unless he gets lucky and there's no one major on the ballot in the same year. Looking at the retirees so far it seems he's the only real HOF type to retire this year.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

If neither Piazza nor Pudge makes it, then who really cares one way or the other about Posada? The BBWAA really must address the whole steroids mess at some point. At some point they're going to vote in a "clean" player who will later be found out to be a doper, then what?

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

If neither Piazza nor Pudge makes it, then who really cares one way or the other about Posada? The BBWAA really must address the whole steroids mess at some point. At some point they're going to vote in a "clean" player who will later be found out to be a doper, then what?

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[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Jorge should definitely get in. Jeter, Pettitte, Posada, and Rivera should all be 100% locks. Of course, Pettitte will have a hard time.

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

If neither Piazza nor Pudge makes it, then who really cares one way or the other about Posada? The BBWAA really must address the whole steroids mess at some point. At some point they're going to vote in a "clean" player who will later be found out to be a doper, then what?

Yeah and the whole debating about guys just based on body type (Biggio) is just silly IMO.

As for Piazza he may have dabbled with PEDs but he was pretty big even as a rookie way back when....I sure hope he gets in at some point.

[tvman]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'd say anyone who has been caught should not get in and everyone else should be eligible. You cannot keep someone out simply because you THINK he took steroids.

[douggoud]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The day Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, Rafael Palmeiro, or any other "juiced" player gets into the Hall of Fame, I will lose all respect for the Hall (or rather, the voters). Wanna know why? Last time I checked it was "against the rules" to use "performance enhancing drugs". It was also against the rules to gamble. If they can keep the all-time hits leader, Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame, then by god they can keep the all-time homerun king out as well (and everyone else like him for that matter). I dont' care, "what they could of been" or "how great they would of been if they didn't use steriods". They broke the rules, so too bad!

Ok, rant over, lol. Personally, I've always disliked this lot. Sure they made baseball exciting, but you know what, if you feel the need to "cheat" then just get out. I mean, I think (probably because I'm an Angels fan) that these guys, took away from what Tim Salmon did as a player (who, after one year, is now forever gone from the ballot, and will NEVER be able to be a hall of famer, even though he played the game CLEAN like it should, hell, he never made an all-star game, yes, but the all-star game is a popularity contest, so guys on roids before they were suspected, got a god load of votes, and he didn't get enough, probably because his best years were behind him by the time the Angels actually became a good enough team to be watched ). And if I remember correcty, Palmeiro and McGwire got quite a bit of votes (I think McGwire got 100 votes, and Palmeiro got about 70). Those votes, potentially (and McGwire and Palmeiro's removal from the ballot) could of gotten someone else into the Hall, or kept someone on the ballot.

I want you guys to look at the players listed at 15,16, and 17 on this list and tell me why you think they shouldn't at least be part of voting in the next few years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml


Ok, lets see,

Juan Gonzalez: 1936 hits, 434 HR's, 1404 RBI's, .343 OBP, and a batting average of .295 over 17 seasons.

Vinny Castilla: 1884 hits, 320 HR's, 1105 RBI's, .321 OBP, and a batting average of .276 over 16 seasons.

Tim Salmon: 1764 hits, 299 HR's, 1016 RBI's, .385 OBP, and a batting average of .282 over 14 seasons.

Now, lets look at Mark McGwire's stats:

Mark McGwire: 1626 hits, 583 HR's, 1414 RBI's, .394 OBP, and a batting average of .263 over 16 seasons.

Let's face it people, McGwire would of been an awful hitter without his homeruns, which leads to his steroid use, whould he even be on the ballot if he didn't have all his homeruns? probably, but he would of suffered the same fate as Tim Salmon, Vinny Castilla and Juan Gonzalez.

I want someone to try and defend him, I really do. This is why I've already lost respect for the voters, because 3 great players no longer can go into the Hall of Fame, pretty much because of guys like McGwire (I do however know that Gonzalez was suspected of PEDs, or rather he or his trainer was caught with a "illegal" drug in a bag, but I don't think he tested positive). All in all, the main anger behind this is Tim Salmon not even making it more than one year on the ballot, I could live with him not making the Hall of Fame after the max years on the ballot, because, if I'm honest, he is pretty boarderline (I say that I could live with it, but even if it worked out this way, I'd probably still get mad ), but after looking at the other 2 that didn't make it, it actually gave me a real reason to be just a bit frustrated with the voters. But then, I guess thats to be expected, it took them 13 years or so to put Bert Blyleven in the Hall.

[snepp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I want you guys to look at the players listed at 15,16, and 17 on this list and tell me why you think they shouldn't at least be part of voting in the next few years.

Your problem is an over-reliance on select counting stats, while completely ignoring walks and SLG% and not taking any context into consideration.

OPS+
163 McGwire (tied with Jimmie Fox for the 11th best mark in history)

132 Gonzalez
128 Salmon
Both very good, but unspectacular for lousy defending corner outfielders.

95 Castilla (below average for his career, there is no argument to be had here, he doesn't have any business in a HoF discussion)

[24]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

All of the PED guys should get in. Call it cheating, say they had an unfair advantage it really does not matter to me. If anyone says that they were not entertained and amazed by the things these players did they are lieing through their teeth. Regardless of the usage all of these major players had serious talent before hand. And to be perfectly honest, the public shouldn't even know about the majority of these guys who took steroids. practically everything was supposed to remain anonymous and if it stayed that way it would have been better.

[douggoud]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Your problem is an over-reliance on select counting stats, while completely ignoring walks and SLG% and not taking any context into consideration.

OPS+
163 McGwire (tied with Jimmie Fox for the 11th best mark in history)

132 Gonzalez
128 Salmon
Both very good, but unspectacular for lousy defending corner outfielders.

95 Castilla (below average for his career, there is no argument to be had here, he doesn't have any business in a HoF discussion)

Problems with walks are that if he didn't take steriods (and enevitably, didn't hit as many homeruns), he wouldn't be walked as much, therefore, his OBP+ would most likely drop. Am I wrong?

Also, just so you know, I wouldn't say that either of them were "lousy" corner outfielders, they weren't "great" but they weren't "lousy" by any means (not to mention, Tim Salmon had a pretty good arm out there, I do remember that)

Also, by fielding percentages

Tim Salmon: .978
Rickey Henderson: .979
Willie Mays: .981
Juan Gonzalez: .983
Ken Griffey Jr.: .985 (a 10 time gold glover mind you)
Tony Gwynn: .987

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

The day Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, Rafael Palmeiro, or any other "juiced" player gets into the Hall of Fame, I will lose all respect for the Hall (or rather, the voters). Wanna know why? Last time I checked it was "against the rules" to use "performance enhancing drugs". It was also against the rules to gamble. If they can keep the all-time hits leader, Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame, then by god they can keep the all-time homerun king out as well (and everyone else like him for that matter). I dont' care, "what they could of been" or "how great they would of been if they didn't use steriods". They broke the rules, so too bad!

"It's against the rules" isn't the best argument.

The penalty for gambling on baseball is straightforward: lifetime ban. The "they" keeping Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe out of the Hall is MLB, not the BBWAA.

The penalty for taking PEDs didn't come into effect until 2005: 50 games for being caught once, 100 games for the second violation, lifetime ban for a third. According to "the rules", none of the players mentioned warrant a lifetime ban.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Problems with walks are that if he didn't take steriods (and enevitably, didn't hit as many homeruns), he wouldn't be walked as much, therefore, his OBP+ would most likely drop. Am I wrong?

Also, just so you know, I wouldn't say that either of them were "lousy" corner outfielders, they weren't "great" but they weren't "lousy" by any means (not to mention, Tim Salmon had a pretty good arm out there, I do remember that)

Also, by fielding percentages

Tim Salmon: .978
Rickey Henderson: .979
Willie Mays: .981
Juan Gonzalez: .983
Ken Griffey Jr.: .985 (a 10 time gold glover mind you)
Tony Gwynn: .987

Fielding % gets scoffed at in gold glove awards, why would it mean much for the HOF?

As for OBP+, it doesn't exist. Don't confuse it with OPS+, which is On-Base + Slugging adjusted.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Vinny Castilla? You mean the guy that put up big numbers when he played for Colorado and was totally subpar everywhere else he played? I don't even think his own momma had him on her HoF ballot.