Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[msuduo]

Does Carlos Beltran get in?

Of course he's still playing, but I think he's really borderline.

Not right now. If he could have 2 more seasons like these past 2 it would be close

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Recently came across this thread and of course, as a Rockies fan, I searched for what people thought about Todd Helton. Seems like the general consensus was that no he shouldn't be in the HOF (granted that was about a year ago).

He is among the top 100 in the history of baseball in career batting average (.318, 57th), hits (2,471, 99th), doubles (577, 28th), home runs (360, 77th) and RBIs (1,375, 79th). To add on to that, he is a five-time All-Star, three-time Gold Glove winner and four-time winner of the Silver Slugger.

Those are outstanding #'s and I forget the exact number, but there is only a handful of players in the history of the game that rank in the top 100 in that many different offensive categories. Not only should just those offensive numbers get him in the Hall, but he is also one of the greatest defensive 1B in the history of the game as well.

[ubernoob]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

That ones hard to say. Counting stats alone don't get you into the HoF (nor should they.)

He's only topped 100 RBI 5 times, and only had 2 (back-to-back) seasons above 120. He had one monster year (2000) when he led the league in hits, doubles (thanks Coors), RBI, Avg, OBP, SLG, OPS and total bases. Aside from that year he has never led the league in any category aside from OBP in 2005. Again, aside from 2 crazy years (2000&01) he has never topped 120 RBI. He's only topped 200 hits twice in his career.

Since 2002 he has averaged 76 (75.5) RBI. He's had a very very short peak (2000/2001) and a steady, solid career.

Won't get in, since this isn't the "Hall of Very Good." If he does, it will be either a long time after the ballot or from the Veteran's Committee down the road.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Helton's 50/50, but certainly not first ballot.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

All you need to know about Todd Helton.

http://www.kingkaufman.com/2011/01/21/todd-helton-without-coors/

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

That article attempts to correct for run environment, but wRC+ does that too. 133 wRC+ for his career. I don't think he particularly deserves to go in, but I think he may get some votes.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Is it really fair to knock Helton for playing at Coors though? Even if he was more of a product of his environment, that's still not his fault. I believe he would be a no doubter if he'd played in a major media market.

Injuries derailed him at the end. I would vote him in. Not first ballot, but eventually.

For me Helton is a Hall of Famer.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Recently came across this thread and of course, as a Rockies fan, I searched for what people thought about Todd Helton. Seems like the general consensus was that no he shouldn't be in the HOF (granted that was about a year ago).

He is among the top 100 in the history of baseball in career batting average (.318, 57th), hits (2,471, 99th), doubles (577, 28th), home runs (360, 77th) and RBIs (1,375, 79th). To add on to that, he is a five-time All-Star, three-time Gold Glove winner and four-time winner of the Silver Slugger.

Those are outstanding #'s and I forget the exact number, but there is only a handful of players in the history of the game that rank in the top 100 in that many different offensive categories. Not only should just those offensive numbers get him in the Hall, but he is also one of the greatest defensive 1B in the history of the game as well.

His OBP is phenomenal and his slugging is acceptable. He really wasn't that great of a defender. War doesn't favor him defensively he's actually in the negative, but he's not close to being one of the best defensive 1st basemen of all time.

Offensiviely though, i believe his output justifies his case for the hall, he is a player I would associate the 2000's with, and as far as I know he's clean.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

His OBP is phenomenal and his slugging is acceptable. He really wasn't that great of a defender. War doesn't favor him defensively he's actually in the negative, but he's not close to being one of the best defensive 1st basemen of all time.

Offensiviely though, i believe his output justifies his case for the hall, he is a player I would associate the 2000's with, and as far as I know he's clean.

Fangraphs has him at a +56.2 Fld, a 2.3 UZR/150, and +27 DRS for his career.

His JAWS score is 31.05. The 2012 BBWAA ballot standards for a 1B were 51.4. His WARP was 53.5 and the standards were 61.1. His Peak was 34.8. 2012 standard... 40.8.

I don't think he's a HOFer. He may get in but I don't think he deserves it.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Call me crazy but I don't pay attention to fielding sabermetrics. I've watched him play an extremely high level of defense at 1B for 15+ years. The skill he has to pick throws out of the dirt is really impressive. He has to be one of the best at picking throws out of the dirt, which is about as important as it gets defensively for a 1B.

You bring up the bigger market thing. I don't really care about the awards stuff, but if he did play in a bigger market he would certainly have more All-Star games and Gold Gloves under his belt (and maybe a WS ring or 2).

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I've watched him play an extremely high level of defense at 1B for 15+ years.

No, you haven't.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

No, you haven't.

lol. Yes I have?

Anyone who discredits Helton's defense is either clueless to how well he plays/played 1B or clueless about baseball in general.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I was always under the impression that Helton was at least good defensively at first base.

[ubernoob]

While I disagree with some parts of UZR, eye test against statistics the eye test losses every time.

This is exactly why I put "this isn't a slight against him nor against Rockies' fans." You aren't being impartial when it comes to this discussion.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

UZR is much better than the eye test, honestly. And the day they find a suitable, publicly accessible way to create a DRS-like stat is the day I'll be very happy, it's a great concept.

Helton is very good in both, but he doesn't have the stats to justify getting into the HOF.