Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

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  • AC
    Win the East
    • Sep 2010
    • 14951

    #331
    Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

    Originally posted by G3no_11
    And my point is that his road numbers compare with HoF caliber hitters. It's not like he was poor on the road.
    That's not the point anyone cares about and you know it. You're avoiding this.

    Answer this. Todd Helton has a large, large discrepancy between his home and away splits. Why is this the case? Is this normal for other HOF hitters?
    "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

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    • G3no_11
      MVP
      • Oct 2012
      • 1110

      #332
      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

      Originally posted by ACMilan99
      That's not the point anyone cares about and you know it. You're avoiding this.

      Answer this. Todd Helton has a large, large discrepancy between his home and away splits. Why is this the case? Is this normal for other HOF hitters?
      Why does it matter? If he still puts up HoF quality numbers on the road, why does it matter if there is a large drop off?
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      • AC
        Win the East
        • Sep 2010
        • 14951

        #333
        Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

        Originally posted by G3no_11
        Why does it matter? If he still puts up HoF quality numbers on the road, why does it matter if there is a large drop off?
        Not only are his numbers not quite as good as the full stats of the other players noted, but he's a first baseman, where expectations for offense are higher. The only other 1B on that list, Pujols, blows Helton out of the water.
        "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

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        • G3no_11
          MVP
          • Oct 2012
          • 1110

          #334
          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

          Originally posted by ACMilan99
          Not only are his numbers not quite as good as the full stats of the other players noted, but he's a first baseman, where expectations for offense are higher. The only other 1B on that list, Pujols, blows Helton out of the water.
          I guess I just don't get why it is such an issue. Helton at least compares to the players listed with just his road splits... it's not even taking into account how insane his home splits are. If the point of this is just to point out his home/road split differential, then ok, but if just his road splits compare to those players that are HoF caliber, then I don't see it as much of an issue.

          If his road splits didn't even compare to those players, like hitting .260-.270, then I could see an issue.
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          • Stroehms
            MVP
            • Jan 2008
            • 2640

            #335
            He had 360 HR (77th All time). 220 at home, 140 on the road.

            836 RBIs at home and 540 away.

            He's finished in the Top 5 in MVP voting once.

            Todd Helton is certainly the best First Baseman in Rockies history but he belongs in the Hall of Very Good.

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            • Sportsforever
              NL MVP
              • Mar 2005
              • 20368

              #336
              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

              Originally posted by G3no_11
              So Helton's .289/.389/.473 isn't too far off from those player's road #'s.
              The only one he's 'close' to is Jeter and Helton doesn't play SS...
              "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

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              • snepp
                We'll waste him too.
                • Apr 2003
                • 10007

                #337
                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                Beltran, I'd go borderline yes right now, definite yes when he's finally done.


                Helton, no.
                Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

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                • DamnYanks2
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 20794

                  #338
                  Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                  For 5 straight years, (2000-2004) He had an OPS in the stratosphere. He was arguably one of the top offensive threats in the league. A career OBP of .417. And was one of the top players in a steroid era, and as far as we know is clean.

                  I think what really hurts him is he only had 5 years of 100 or more rbi's, and he's a first basemen, like someone said. But you can't deny a career .317 average or the OBP.

                  His defense was so so. but it wasn't bad.

                  I don't compare Helton to every first basemen in the hall, I compare him to the players in his era. As far as era is concerned, i think he's in, I would vote him in.

                  Comment

                  • AC
                    Win the East
                    • Sep 2010
                    • 14951

                    #339
                    ^Every number you just posted could be impacted by Coors quite heavily.

                    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
                    "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

                    Comment

                    • DamnYanks2
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 20794

                      #340
                      Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                      Originally posted by ACMilan99
                      ^Every number you just posted could be impacted by Coors quite heavily.

                      Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
                      Sure it was, but can we really blame a guy for playing his whole career in Coors?

                      Comment

                      • Stroehms
                        MVP
                        • Jan 2008
                        • 2640

                        #341
                        Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                        Sure it was, but can we really blame a guy for playing his whole career in Coors?
                        In these days of free agency, yes.

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                        • Sportsforever
                          NL MVP
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 20368

                          #342
                          Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                          Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                          Sure it was, but can we really blame a guy for playing his whole career in Coors?
                          Okay...the flip side, should we not adjust a guy who plays his whole career in the Astrodome? Everything is about context. If I told you I sold a big home for $300K and that's all I told you, you don't know if that's a good deal or not. Now if I tell you it was in San Diego you have an idea that maybe I should have gotten more for it.

                          Just like if I say a guy hit .300 and hit 40 homers one year. Now if I tell you he did it in 1968 instead of 1930 or 1998 you know it's a special year. Home parks are no different...you must adjust for it. Doesn't mean Helton hasn't been a darn good player for a long time, but he wasn't putting up his numbers in an offensively deflated period or in a pitcher's park, which is going to get held against him.
                          "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

                          Comment

                          • snepp
                            We'll waste him too.
                            • Apr 2003
                            • 10007

                            #343
                            Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                            Originally posted by DamnYanks2
                            Sure it was, but can we really blame a guy for playing his whole career in Coors?

                            Blame him? No.


                            Put his numbers into appropriate context for adequate comparison to his peers? Hell ****ing yes.
                            Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

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                            • G3no_11
                              MVP
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 1110

                              #344
                              Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                              Originally posted by Sportsforever
                              The only one he's 'close' to is Jeter and Helton doesn't play SS...
                              He's fairly close to all of them except Pujols. Again.. I just don't see why the large drop of in his home/road splits would be that much of an issue. He is in the ballpark comparing with HoF hitters on the road...... so because he happens to blow all of them out of the water with his home splits he's not getting in?

                              It doesn't make sense.. he was still a HoF caliber hitter on the road.

                              I still strongly disagree with this "so so" defense talk. He won 3 Gold Gloves and easily could've won more.
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                              • DamnYanks2
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Jun 2007
                                • 20794

                                #345
                                Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

                                Originally posted by Sportsforever
                                Okay...the flip side, should we not adjust a guy who plays his whole career in the Astrodome? Everything is about context. If I told you I sold a big home for $300K and that's all I told you, you don't know if that's a good deal or not. Now if I tell you it was in San Diego you have an idea that maybe I should have gotten more for it.

                                Just like if I say a guy hit .300 and hit 40 homers one year. Now if I tell you he did it in 1968 instead of 1930 or 1998 you know it's a special year. Home parks are no different...you must adjust for it. Doesn't mean Helton hasn't been a darn good player for a long time, but he wasn't putting up his numbers in an offensively deflated period or in a pitcher's park, which is going to get held against him.
                                I feel like it's a poor example to just throw a guy out just because, he was aided by the Coors effect, Does it matter anyway, with everyone juicing. Now I wouldn't dare compare him to Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Pujols, or Bagwell. But compared to maybe Bagwell and Pujols, was there a better 1st basemen in that era. I'm throwing out McGwire too.

                                There's also this

                                Since 1901, only 12 first basemen have at least 4 qualifying seasons with an OPS+ of at least 160:
                                Rk Yrs From To Age
                                1 Lou Gehrig 11 1927 1937 24-34 Ind. Seasons
                                2 Jimmie Foxx 8 1929 1939 21-31 Ind. Seasons
                                3 Johnny Mize 7 1936 1947 23-34 Ind. Seasons
                                4 Albert Pujols 6 2004 2010 24-30 Ind. Seasons
                                5 Mark McGwire 6 1987 1999 23-35 Ind. Seasons
                                6 Frank Thomas 6 1992 1997 24-29 Ind. Seasons
                                7 Jason Giambi 4 2000 2005 29-34 Ind. Seasons
                                8 Todd Helton 4 2000 2004 26-30 Ind. Seasons
                                9 Jeff Bagwell 4 1994 1999 26-31 Ind. Seasons
                                10 Willie McCovey 4 1966 1970 28-32 Ind. Seasons
                                11 Hank Greenberg 4 1935 1946 24-35 Ind. Seasons
                                12 Jack Fournier 4 1915 1925 25-35 Ind. Seasons

                                Sorry, that didn't come out as clean as I wanted. Grabbed from Baseball reference.
                                Last edited by DamnYanks2; 07-21-2013, 07:01 PM.

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