Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I wouldn't be shocked if Kevin Brown got in.

I would, considering he's already off the ballot and all.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

How about Ron Guidry. Looking at him compared with his 80's pitching counterparts, he was one of the better pitchers of the 80's.

A three time 20 or more game winner. 170-91 career record. In 1978 he put on arguably one of the best pitchers performances of all time, going 25-3 with a 1.78 era and 248 strikeouts.

Has a career WAR of 48.1, ehh decent. And a career 3.29 era. K/9 6.69. Whip 1.18.

He's a compelling case.

Gator! His 1978 was just nasty. I agree that his run from 1977-1985, while stellar, was perhaps 3-5 years too short.

I would, considering he's already off the ballot and all.

There is always the veteran's committee. Either way, I don't think he deserves it. Of course people will point to his ~ 70 bWAR, but for some of the reasons DrJones mentioned as well as him frankly coming up short in counting numbers (wins, K's), he's a little short. And that he was essentially 31 before he became "good" his 1st year in Florida is a little fishy (hahahahahah!)

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

There is always the veteran's committee.

By the time he qualifies for their "ballot" there will be such a backlog of players before him that didn't get in that he will most likely be forgotten. I truly can't ever see him getting in under any circumstance after getting kicked off the real ballot after one year.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It's a shame Brown will never have a chance, I hate the ****ing BBWA. Dump them and just start with a brand new cast. Preferrably with guys from grantland and fangraphs. I'm sure Kevin's attitude did have some to do with it, and that pisses me off.

[jth1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'd say Brown just didn't have enough of the stat line to get in. Plus he was rather poor in the postseason cumulative. Well, maybe thats just skewed too much from his horrible ALCS performance.
But still, he was horrible in the World Series for both the Marlins and Padres.

Now that I'm thinking of awesome pitchers who pitched in the '90's, what about some of those closers? Do they even have a shot?

Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner, John Franco...

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Now that I'm thinking of awesome pitchers who pitched in the '90's, what about some of those closers? Do they even have a shot?

Trevor Hoffman, Billy Wagner, John Franco...

Hoffman will, Wagner won't, Franco is already off the ballot.

[TCM]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Why don't you think Wagner will make it in? I'd imagine he would eventually, even if it takes a few years.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Why don't you think Wagner will make it in? I'd imagine he would eventually, even if it takes a few years.

Number of relief pitchers currently in HoF: 5

Hoyt Wilhelm: first "closer", threw knuckleball, pitched ton of innings

Rollie Fingers: won Cy Young, won MVP, won 3 World Series, led league in saves 3x, pitched ton of innings, cool mustache/nickname

Goose Gossage: won World Series with Yankees, led league in saves 3x, pitched ton of innings, cool mustache/nickname

Bruce Sutter: first "modern (ie, 9th inning specialist) closer", won Cy Young, won MVP, won World Series, led league in saves 5x, "invented splitter"

Dennis Eckersley: won approx. 140 games as starter, won Cy Young, won MVP, won World Series, led league in saves 2x, mustache/nickname of debatable coolness

Billy Wagner: no Cy Young, no MVP, no World Series, never held saves record, never led league in saves in any season, known for... what? throwing gas while being short and LH?

-------

See what I'm getting at here? If you're a reliever and want to get to Cooperstown, you better stand out in some way. Rivera's getting in for obvious reasons, Hoffman because he has 600+ saves and a signature pitch/team (change/Padres), Smoltz because of his success as a starter (Cy Young, World Series, playoff record/rep). That's it.

Now, I'm sure you (or someone else on this thread) can construct a good argument as to why Wagner deserves to be in Cooperstown. But making a case that 75% of the BBWAA will think so? Ever? Good luck. I doubt Wagner ever makes it to 20% of the vote.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Bruce Sutter: first "modern (ie, 9th inning specialist) closer", won Cy Young, won MVP, won World Series, led league in saves 5x, "invented splitter"

No mention of Sutter's cool stache? He checked that box too! Like any HoF closer should.



EDIT: oh, and fyi, Sutter didn't win an MVP.

imo, even as a Cubs fan, Wagner is more deserving than Sutter. I agree that Wagner will have tough sledding with BBWAA.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Number of relief pitchers currently in HoF: 5

Hoyt Wilhelm: first "closer", threw knuckleball, pitched ton of innings

Rollie Fingers: won Cy Young, won MVP, won 3 World Series, led league in saves 3x, pitched ton of innings, cool mustache/nickname

Goose Gossage: won World Series with Yankees, led league in saves 3x, pitched ton of innings, cool mustache/nickname

Bruce Sutter: first "modern (ie, 9th inning specialist) closer", won Cy Young, won MVP, won World Series, led league in saves 5x, "invented splitter"

Dennis Eckersley: won approx. 140 games as starter, won Cy Young, won MVP, won World Series, led league in saves 2x, mustache/nickname of debatable coolness

Billy Wagner: no Cy Young, no MVP, no World Series, never held saves record, never led league in saves in any season, known for... what? throwing gas while being short and LH?

-------

See what I'm getting at here? If you're a reliever and want to get to Cooperstown, you better stand out in some way. Rivera's getting in for obvious reasons, Hoffman because he has 600+ saves and a signature pitch/team (change/Padres), Smoltz because of his success as a starter (Cy Young, World Series, playoff record/rep). That's it.

Now, I'm sure you (or someone else on this thread) can construct a good argument as to why Wagner deserves to be in Cooperstown. But making a case that 75% of the BBWAA will think so? Ever? Good luck. I doubt Wagner ever makes it to 20% of the vote.

Yup...the only relievers I see making it from the 1990's/2000's generation are Mo, Hoffman, and Smoltz. Mo and Hoffman for their work as arguably the #1 and #2 closers and Smoltz for his combined efforts as a starter/closer.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I would vote No on Billy. "Trevor Time" is a no doubter.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

No mention of Sutter's cool stache? He checked that box too! Like any HoF closer should.

I always thought of him as a "beard" guy.

EDIT: oh, and fyi, Sutter didn't win an MVP.

Cut and paste strikes again.

[TCM]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yeah I see where you're coming from, that's a shame too. His overall numbers are ridiculous. Career ERA+ of 187, Career K/9 around 12, Whip just under 1, and a career ERA of 2.31. The innings and saves don't stack up but he deserves a look at least.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Yeah I see where you're coming from, that's a shame too. His overall numbers are ridiculous. Career ERA+ of 187, Career K/9 around 12, Whip just under 1, and a career ERA of 2.31. The innings and saves don't stack up but he deserves a look at least.

I agree. But one thing people should always remember is that the people in this thread put a lot more thought into this than the majority of BBWAA members. Borderline candidates need either a narrative hook, a signature moment, or strong support from the saber community (which Wagner likely won't receive because of his low WAR).

[NYJets]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

No one to add right now, but I know Beltre was discussed a couple of pages back, and Grantland wrote a good article on him today worth sharing:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/73424/the-often-underappreciated-adrian-beltre