Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Caulfield]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

that's nice and all for Rolen, but he's still infinitely less famous than Tommy John

[Amoo316]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Rolen, Helton, Wagner and Jones should all be in IMO.


I can get holding guys out on the first year, but this whole "matriculating" up the ballot each year is silly.

What is going to change between this year and next that suddenly makes a few more writer vote for these guys? Nothing but stupidity IMO.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Rolen, Helton, Wagner and Jones should all be in IMO.


I can get holding guys out on the first year, but this whole "matriculating" up the ballot each year is silly.

What is going to change between this year and next that suddenly makes a few more writer vote for these guys? Nothing but stupidity IMO.

It is stupid. And the jumps are ridiculous too. It's not even incremental. Looking at the charts. I bet you Kent,Sheff and Beltran will get in too eventually.

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[IndianSummer]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I’m curious how they vote next year when Adrian Beltre becomes eligible. In my opinion he is a no doubt first ballot hall of famer.
Andruw Jones is probably light offensively in the eyes of the selection committee but he was elite defensively. Hopefully they will consider that.

[Caulfield]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It is stupid. And the jumps are ridiculous too. It's not even incremental. Looking at the charts. I bet you Kent,Sheff and Beltran will get in too eventually.

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Sheffield going into the hall would be a good test case to subtley get people used to having admitted ped users in the hall

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Some of it I think is to keep others on the ballot too, versus refusing to vote.

That said...stop the madness and vote in Andruw people.

[dubcity]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Sheffield going into the hall would be a good test case to subtley get people used to having admitted ped users in the hall

Manny too. For the love of God, those guys were elite hitters with or without steroids.

[Amoo316]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It is stupid. And the jumps are ridiculous too. It's not even incremental. Looking at the charts. I bet you Kent,Sheff and Beltran will get in too eventually.

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Sheff was named in the Mitchell report, though he never tested positive after. He did admit to using "the cream" not knowing what it was. I'm not sure he gets in. I personally loved the guy, and like Bonds thought he was HOFer pre-steroids (if we even really know when they was). I just think he has a tough time. None of his advanced stats make him a HOFer, but he always "felt" to me like a better player than Beltran. Maybe it was just his crazy fast bet. If foul ball HR's was a stat he'd probably be the career leader there.

Kent will be the interesting one. I always hated the guy. I know the media always hated the guy. I seem to remember his best seasons being around the time of the BALCO stuff, but I could be wrong as him and Bonds publicly didn't get along.


I think the biggest problem for Kent is his Total career WAR is about 14 points lower than the average HOF 2nd baseman and hit 7 year peak war is about 9 WAR lower than your average HOF 2nd baseman. At 3.9/WAR per 162, the numbers seem to support my "gut" feeling from watching him that he wasn't a HOF.

Beltran I think will be the real interesting one you mentioned. From his playing days I never remember watching the guy and thinking, man this guy is going to be a HOFer one day. He didn't get to 3K Hits, he didn't get to 500HRs, he never really sniffed an MVP minus 1 top 5.

Funny enough though, when you look at his HOF stats vs the average HOFer, Career WAR, Peak 7 year WAR, and JAWS are almost all dead on a HOF average. Where he falls short is the average CF HOFer had a 5.4WAR/162 vs Beltran's 4.4 WAR/162. So does he get in based on longevity? I can see the argument, he just always felt like an All-Star player in his days. You look back at his numbers and say, yeah he had a pretty solid career, but unless he wins the longevity award, I'm not sure I'd put him in.


Summary: Of the 3, Beltran is the only one I would consider voting for personally, and I'm not sure I'd pull the lever. To me his best stat is he played from 21-40 with only 2 negative WAR seasons.

[Amoo316]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I’m curious how they vote next year when Adrian Beltre becomes eligible. In my opinion he is a no doubt first ballot hall of famer.
Andruw Jones is probably light offensively in the eyes of the selection committee but he was elite defensively. Hopefully they will consider that.

Andrew Jones not being in already is criminal in my eyes. Yes he was light offensively, but he was legitimately compared to Willie Mays as the best Defensive CF of all time throughout a majority of his career.

10 straight Gold gloves, got hurt (Knee surgery) at 31 the year he went to LAD and was injured basically every year after that.

Anybody who spends 10 years of their career being compared to Willie Mays and has the hardware to back it up belongs in the HOF IMO

[IndianSummer]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Andrew Jones not being in already is criminal in my eyes. Yes he was light offensively, but he was legitimately compared to Willie Mays as the best Defensive CF of all time throughout a majority of his career.

10 straight Gold gloves, got hurt (Knee surgery) at 31 the year he went to LAD and was injured basically every year after that.

Anybody who spends 10 years of their career being compared to Willie Mays and has the hardware to back it up belongs in the HOF IMO

Absolute agree with you. I have little faith in the writers looking at anything but offensive stats. It also cracks my cactus that Billy Wagner’s first year he only received 10% of the votes. If you’re a hall of famer you’re a hall of famer on year one not nine years later. I’m really curious how those idiots will vote next year on Beltre.

[Speedy]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It also cracks my cactus that ...

I can unequivocally say I've never heard this expression before.

[Master Live 013]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Will say it again, gotta get rid of the silly limit of how many players voters can have on their ballots.

[CBoller1331]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Will say it again, gotta get rid of the silly limit of how many players voters can have on their ballots.

Should also disqualify certain voters who continue to make a mockery of their ballots (blank ballots or obscure 1-vote ballots come to mind--there was a solo K-Rod ballot this year (no not A-Rod)). Todd Helton would have gotten elected this year if not for the 15 blank/1-vote ballots this year.

There's got to be some criteria like if you don't vote for a certain percentage of guys that get elected over the years then your vote gets taken away.

[dubcity]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

There are definitely voters voting for players they know won't get in one year, and then when there's a legit shot they don't vote for them.

I think it's time for the HoF to be ignored and made irrelevant.

[Amoo316]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

If you have ESPN+ there's a good article up right now about Joey Votto's HOF case.

It looks on the outside like a case about him being a HOFer. On the inside, it's actually a much deeper dive into how baseball and stats have changed since he entered the league in 2007.

They talk about things like, reconsidering what numbers make somebody a HOF lock 3000, 500, 300...etc.

They point out Once Miggy retires Votto will be the active leader in hits at just over 2K hits.

I thought it was a good read and provides an interesting "advanced stats light" version of cases for players of his generation and those coming up.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/insider/story/_/id/35523533/mlb-joey-votto-future-hall-fame