Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

UZR is much better than the eye test, honestly. And the day they find a suitable, publicly accessible way to create a DRS-like stat is the day I'll be very happy, it's a great concept.

Helton is very good in both, but he doesn't have the stats to justify getting into the HOF.

That's fair. Along with a few other answers. Obviously I am going to be a little biased being a Rockies fan and having the ability to watch him consistently for over 15 years. The only answer that "grinded my gears" was that I haven't watched him play 1B at a high level for so many years. I have.. and it really is impressive to watch. Since I have kind of been weened off of his hitting (at least power-wise), his fielding will be the most glaring thing missing when he retires.

Me personally, I think he should get in, it's really a no brainer to me. I believe the number is 17 or 18... only 17 or 18 players in history of the game rank in the top 100 in as many categories as he does. But will he get in the Hall? I think it's probably at or lower than a 50/50 chance. I think people just put way too much emphasis/punishment for playing in Coors Field for him to get in.

Obviously I was expecting people to think differently in this thread, otherwise there would've been no point to bring him up.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Speaking of homer choices, you guys think Doc Halladay gets in? I hope he goes in and as a Blue Jay, too. I'd be there for that. Roughly 68 fWAR as a pitcher in a very hitter-friendly period. Absolute cyborg. Peak of 8 wins, which is insane for a pitcher. Post season no hitter. Should fair well in narratives and counting stats. 3.20 xFIP.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Speaking of homer choices, you guys think Doc Halladay gets in? I hope he goes in and as a Blue Jay, too. I'd be there for that. Roughly 68 fWAR as a pitcher in a very hitter-friendly period. Absolute cyborg. Peak of 8 wins, which is insane for a pitcher. Post season no hitter. Should fair well in narratives and counting stats. 3.20 xFIP.

What's his W/L record??? lol

He'd get my vote. He has been considered one of the best if not THE best pitchers in the game for nearly a decade. One thing that is impressive to me is winning 2 Cy Young awards, 1 in the AL and 1 in the NL, and he did it 7 years apart.

He's a product of Colorado too.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Speaking of homer choices, you guys think Doc Halladay gets in? I hope he goes in and as a Blue Jay, too. I'd be there for that. Roughly 68 fWAR as a pitcher in a very hitter-friendly period. Absolute cyborg. Peak of 8 wins, which is insane for a pitcher. Post season no hitter. Should fair well in narratives and counting stats. 3.20 xFIP.

He's got the same ERA+ as Sandy Koufax did and only one point behind Maddux. He gets my vote.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think people just put way too much emphasis/punishment for playing in Coors Field for him to get in.

That's bound to happen when you hit .347/.444/.607 at Coors and .289/.389/.473 everywhere else.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

That's bound to happen when you hit .347/.444/.607 at Coors and .289/.389/.473 everywhere else.

Generally aren't players going to hit better at home regardless? Just as far as a comfort level? Players generally always play better at home in every sport.

It can also be somewhat exaggerated due to the division he plays in. LA, SD, and SF all have some of the most prominent pitchers parks.

Obviously the .347 is pretty insane and prior to the humidor, Coors was the biggest launching pad in the league... but .289 isn't bad at all for a career road average. I could see an issue if he hit like .259 on the road, but .289 is great for a road average. That's higher than a lot of great players hit in their career home or away.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Just a handful of modern era HoF caliber hitters:

Pujols home: .326/.418/.598
Pujols road: .317/.402/.601

A-Rod home: .308/.390/.578
A-Rod road: .293/.379/.543

Jeter home: .318/.390/.459
Jeter road: .309/.373/.437

Ramirez home: .311/.413/.591
Ramirez road: .314/.409/.580

Bonds home: .301/.449/.618
Bonds road: .296/.440/.597

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Fangraphs has him at a +56.2 Fld, a 2.3 UZR/150, and +27 DRS for his career.

His JAWS score is 31.05. The 2012 BBWAA ballot standards for a 1B were 51.4. His WARP was 53.5 and the standards were 61.1. His Peak was 34.8. 2012 standard... 40.8.

I don't think he's a HOFer. He may get in but I don't think he deserves it.

I tried putting this post into Google Translate and it didn't work :-/

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Just a handful of modern era HoF caliber hitters:

Pujols road: .317/.402/.601

A-Rod road: .293/.379/.543

Jeter road: .309/.373/.437

Ramirez road: .314/.409/.580

Bonds road: .296/.440/.597

So Helton's .289/.389/.473 isn't too far off from those player's road #'s.

[55]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

So Helton's .289/.389/.473 isn't too far off from those player's road #'s.

That's clearly not the point I was trying to make, but feel free to keep on picking those cherries.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

That's clearly not the point I was trying to make, but feel free to keep on picking those cherries.

I'm not "picking cherries" I was just pointing out that Helton's road splits compare with those that are "modern era HoF caliber hitters."

It shows he was a "HoF caliber hitter" on the road and just happens to be much better at home.

He's tied for 19th all-time in doubles with Wade Boggs. He's hit 312 at home and 266 at home. That is really not that exaggerated especially considering he's hit .347 at home.
I would guess he finishes 16th all-time in doubles if this is his last season. The only players that are top 20 all-time in doubles that are not in the Hall are Pete Rose, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Luis Gonzalez, and Rafael Palmeiro.

[ubernoob]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I wouldn't say they compare favorably.

None of those listed have a .60 point drop in their batting average and all are higher than Helton's.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I tried putting this post into Google Translate and it didn't work :-/

There's no translation for nerd?

I was just pointing out that Helton's road splits compare with those that are "modern era HoF caliber hitters.

Okaaaaaaay.. but the main point he was making is the large discrepancy between his home and road splits, not his overall road split. Hell, you and I have had this debate quite a few times with Carlos Gonzalez.

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I wouldn't say they compare favorably.

None of those listed have a .60 point drop in their batting average and all are higher than Helton's.

Well not many players have a career batting average in the .340's at home, so it would be hard to find someone with Helton's numbers where there isn't a fairly big drop off on the road.

If he had a home/road split similar to the players listed, he would be a career .330 hitter. It's not like he is a career .290 hitter and he has that large of a drop off, he's a career .318 hitter (57th all-time, right next to Kirby Puckett).

[G3no_11]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Okaaaaaaay.. but the main point he was making is the large discrepancy between his home and road splits, not his overall road split. Hell, you and I have had this debate quite a few times with Carlos Gonzalez.

And my point is that his road numbers compare with HoF caliber hitters. It's not like he was poor on the road he was just really freakin good at home.