Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

[Mo]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

ESPN contributors released their list too

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10231471/craig-biggio-tom-glavine-greg-maddux-frank-thomas-elected-espn-2014-baseball-hall-fame-ballot

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

It's not the ERA that he played in that is the problem it's the fact that Jack Morris is not a Hall of Fame Pitcher. He has a career ERA of 3.9 which is not Hall of Fame worthy. He's never finished higher than 3rd in a CY Young Award vote and despite Pitching 18 Years he was unable to top 2500 Career strikeouts. The fact that his WAR is 43.8 should close the case right there but I know many people don't like Sabermetrics

Let's narrow the focus to the 1980s because he's in the top 3 best pitchers of that decade with Clemens and Gooden. Morris had an ERA of 3.66 which is respectable and had a record of 162-119. He was a key part of the '84 Tigers World Series team. Morris also threw 133 CGs, 20 shutouts and a No-Hitter. He had a whip of 1.256 which is pretty damn godo.

Morris is one of those guys where the numbers don't exactly do him justice. He's the definition of "I know greatness when I see it" rather than the cold hard numbers.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Let's narrow the focus to the 1980s because he's in the top 3 best pitchers of that decade with Clemens and Gooden. Morris had an ERA of 3.66 which is respectable and had a record of 162-119. He was a key part of the '84 Tigers World Series team. Morris also threw 133 CGs, 20 shutouts and a No-Hitter. He had a whip of 1.256 which is pretty damn godo.

Morris is one of those guys where the numbers don't exactly do him justice. He's the definition of "I know greatness when I see it" rather than the cold hard numbers.

I'm 41 and started watching MLB voraciously during the 1981 season. Jack Morris does not cut it for me. If you're just talking "1980s", I'd probably take Hershiser, Valenzuela, and Stieb over Morris. It's amazing how many Jays fans support him, considering he almost single-handedly submarined the 1992 postseason.

[24]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Let's narrow the focus to the 1980s because he's in the top 3 best pitchers of that decade with Clemens and Gooden. Morris had an ERA of 3.66 which is respectable and had a record of 162-119. He was a key part of the '84 Tigers World Series team. Morris also threw 133 CGs, 20 shutouts and a No-Hitter. He had a whip of 1.256 which is pretty damn godo.

Morris is one of those guys where the numbers don't exactly do him justice. He's the definition of "I know greatness when I see it" rather than the cold hard numbers.

He was a Great Pitcher. No one is denying that. But He isn't Hall of Fame worthy. His stats are Good. But this isn't the Hall of Very Good. It's the Hall Of Fame.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

This Ken Gurnick guy should get his *** kicked.

[jvalverde88]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

But he gets my vote for more than a decade of ace performance that included three 20-win seasons, Cy Young Award votes in seven seasons and Most Valuable Players votes in five.

Because clearly Greg Maddux doesn't have 4 Cy Young Awards and MVP votes in 6 seasons.

[SPTO]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I'm 41 and started watching MLB voraciously during the 1981 season. Jack Morris does not cut it for me. If you're just talking "1980s", I'd probably take Hershiser, Valenzuela, and Stieb over Morris. It's amazing how many Jays fans support him, considering he almost single-handedly submarined the 1992 postseason.

I still would defend him if he never suited up for the Jays. Would you put Blyleven ahead of him too?

Guess where Jack Morris ranks in FIP during the 1980's out of all qualified pitchers?

190th.

Morris was 89th in WAR/IP during the 80's.

Morris had a 91 ERA- and a 98 FIP-. His durability was impressive and I do believe that leading the innings pitched in the 80's by about 100 IP or so is certainly a testament to that and a helpful point in his favor, but I could care a lot less about a guy's "aura" or "presence on the mound" when he's really a good #3, because good #3's aren't what the HOF is for.

Well clearly the stats kill me. I still like the guy and think he deserves a shot at the HOF. He may never get in but i'll always like what he brought to the field. I do think that if never pitched after 1991 he'd probably be in there by now.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Let's narrow the focus to the 1980s because he's in the top 3 best pitchers of that decade with Clemens and Gooden.

No. Guess where Jack Morris ranks in FIP during the 1980's out of all qualified starting pitchers?

122nd.

Morris was 84th in WAR/IP during the 80's. He had the 59th best ERA.

Morris had a 91 ERA- and a 98 FIP-. His durability was impressive and I do believe that leading the innings pitched in the 80's by about 100 IP or so is certainly a testament to that and a helpful point in his favor, but I could care a lot less about a guy's "aura" or "presence on the mound" when he's really a good #3, because good #3's aren't what the HOF is for. And he very certainly wasn't up with Clemens or Gooden.

Clemens
ERA- : 72
FIP- : 67
WAR/IP: .0299 (By far the best of the era)

Gooden
ERA- : 75
FIP- : 71
WAR/IP: 0.0255 (Second place, a fair margin from the next best)

Clemens and Gooden were far better than Morris. Even by ERA, which isn't an advanced stat, Morris was like 20% worse than Clemens and Gooden.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Well clearly the stats kill me. I still like the guy and think he deserves a shot at the HOF. He may never get in but i'll always like what he brought to the field. I do think that if never pitched after 1991 he'd probably be in there by now.

Damn, I apologize for this but I had to delete my post cause of an error I made in my leaderboard. Please refer above to the post for correct stats.

The gist is the same, in that Morris very much doesn't deserve in, but the stats are actually correct and don't include freaking relievers this time.

[DrJones]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I still would defend him if he never suited up for the Jays. Would you put Blyleven ahead of him too?

Strictly based on 1980s stats alone? Probably not. Based on entire career? Easily.

And you do remember that Blyleven has better career playoff stats and outduelled Morris head-to-head in the 1987 ALCS when the Twins upset the heavily favoured Tigers, right?

Well clearly the stats kill me. I still like the guy and think he deserves a shot at the HOF. He may never get in but i'll always like what he brought to the field. I do think that if never pitched after 1991 he'd probably be in there by now.

Honestly? If Morris does make it, he can thank steroids and the sabermetric movement. If Morris was one of the best pitchers of the 1980s, why did he hover around the 20-25% range for his first 5 years on the HoF ballot, when his anecdotal "he just feels like a Hall of Famer" case should've been strongest, during years in which only 1-2 were being voted in every year? It's not like new BBWAA voters started voting for Morris. The same old farts who didn't think he was a Hall of Famer from 2000 to 2004, the same old farts that never voted for him for a Cy Young while he played, started pushing for him to put the juicers and the Moneyball nerds in their place.

[snepp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Let's narrow the focus to the 1980s

Then you need to narrow the focus for every player to their 10 prime seasons in order to come up with any meaningful comparison.

Still doesn't make Morris any better a candidate.

because he's in the top 3 best pitchers of that decade

You forgot to mention Blyleven, Steib, Ryan, and Fernando. As well as a host of others that didn't have the "80's" conveniently fall smack dab on top of their prime years. A guy like Viola put up as much WAR in the 80's with two and a half fewer seasons to go along with pitching for a putrid baseball team most years.

[24]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

I think Mike Mussina isn't getting the recognition he deserves. Consistently underrated he was one of the top tier pitchers of his time. He's Ranked 28th on the JAWS Leader board which is higher than notable pitchers like Tom Glavin and Jim Palmer. He has an 83.0 WAR and was very consistent in both the Regular and Post Season. I think he eventually gets the call but I'm surprised more people aren't talking about him.

[AC]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

You forgot to mention Blyleven, Steib, Ryan, and Fernando.

Don't forget about Steve Carlton's 35.9 fWAR in the 80's.

[snepp]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Don't forget about Steve Carlton's 35.9 fWAR in the 80's.

Yeah, I kind of lumped him into the "prime didn't fit neatly into the 80's" group. He was still pretty ****ing awesome the first half of the decade, despite those being his 35-40 years.

[DamnYanks2]

Re: Hall Of Fame: Yes Or No?

Crossed out idiot,moron,douche, in my dictionary and replaced it with Gurnick. The BBWA are a bunch of certified Gurnick's. That's all.