UZR: Thoughts?

**TheLetterZ** · 11-27-2009, 12:56 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

I'm not sure there are any good defensive metrics for catchers and first baseman because even the traditional stats fail to capture the most important aspects of playing those positions.

**snepp** · 11-27-2009, 01:43 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...r-and-teixeira

**Sportsforever** · 11-27-2009, 01:50 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by snepp

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...r-and-teixeira

Ya...I saw that. I think the point made above about not being able to accurately asses C and 1B abilities has some merit. It just bothers me to see Branyan/Cabrera ahead of someone like Pujols or Tex. Who's glove would you want out there?

**FedEx227** · 12-01-2009, 08:26 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

UZR is still a work in progress and no defensive metric is going to be perfect. It's no doubt hard to put Cabrera in front of Pujols and Tex, but who knows, maybe they are better at getting to more balls.

I honestly can't wait until they start doing the pitch f/x type stuff for defense. Supposedly they are on the way in the next few years, that will take defensive metrics to the next level. As it stands now, UZR is the best we have.

**Coug00** · 12-01-2009, 10:23 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by FedEx227

I honestly can't wait until they start doing the pitch f/x type stuff for defense. Supposedly they are on the way in the next few years, that will take defensive metrics to the next level. As it stands now, UZR is the best we have.

Apparently the full systems that will measure ball speed (beyond what hit f/x supplies), ball trajectory, fielder range, throws, etc have to be paid for separately by each team. Obviously, there are teams that will see the huge benefit and have the money to pay for it in their stadium (Boston, Seattle, etc). It would be great if this system were league wide in the near future, but unfortunately we have the San Diego's and Kansas City's of the world who won't/can't spend the money or won't see the value in "numbers" measuring defense.

**FedEx227** · 12-01-2009, 10:41 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Damn, I didn't hear that. I thought it was a league-wide, MLB-backed system. I remember concern coming from sites that they'd have to pay to get the results. That really hurts that it will be on a team-by-team basis.

**Coug00** · 12-02-2009, 12:25 AM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by FedEx227

Damn, I didn't hear that. I thought it was a league-wide, MLB-backed system. I remember concern coming from sites that they'd have to pay to get the results. That really hurts that it will be on a team-by-team basis.

That's what I had read last May or June. Maybe things have changed since then. If I could remember the name of the system I'm sure we could get newer info.

**JBH3** · 12-03-2009, 10:46 AM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by snepp

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...r-and-teixeira

Wait. So since Howard is above Pujols in UZR, has only one more error, and even though has less PO's his numbers on defense are still eerily similar...does this mean he moves up the list of where the OSBRSA ranks him?

The below is illustrating that Howard is better defensively than Teixiera, and the attached article is telling you to disregard your eyes and look at the numbers. The numbers show Howard to be a capable defensive 1B who we all know has a potent bat.

Hmmmm...

**snepp** · 12-03-2009, 11:27 AM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Move him up to where? There were nine first basemen that posted a higher wOBA than he did this year. He's solidly in the 5-10 range, I don't know why you continue to be so butt-hurt about what people think of him.

**Coug00** · 12-03-2009, 12:04 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by snepp

I don't know why you continue to be so butt-hurt about what people think of him.

I quit trying to understand that one months ago.

I tend to be in the same boat as Z. I just don't trust UZR (by itself) for 1B anymore. 1B tend to get some head scratching numbers and extremely wild swings from year to year (Teixeira and Pujols for example) that we don't see nearly as much at other positions.

**JBH3** · 12-03-2009, 12:33 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by snepp

Move him up to where? There were nine first basemen that posted a higher wOBA than he did this year. He's solidly in the 5-10 range, I don't know why you continue to be so butt-hurt about what people think of him.

This is the issue (bolded), and while these back and forths occur most often between one or two Phillies fans and one of 'you' guys

...the concept is widely the same.

That being...we have an illustration of Howard being a better defender, at least last year, than Tex, slightly better than Pujols if at all, and better than quite a few other 1Bs that many OSBRA's would or have stated would take over Howard.

So now while this UZR-et all fielding illustration is staring you in the face and Howard is in the top8 among 20 other MLB 1Bs and I post what I do. The then response is to find some other statistic he is deficient in. It's a cyclical thing that seems to have no resolution.

So say next year he somehow improves this wOBA, all things fielding-wise stay relatively the same, then there will be another inconspicuous statistic by which to dismiss him.

Have I over-shot my 'azimuth' so-to-speak w/ the above? I can't help notice these little nuances or intricacies in dealing w/ some on these boards.

**Sandman42** · 12-03-2009, 01:56 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by Coug00

I quit trying to understand that one months ago.

I tend to be in the same boat as Z. I just don't trust UZR (by itself) for 1B anymore. 1B tend to get some head scratching numbers and extremely wild swings from year to year (Teixeira and Pujols for example) that we don't see nearly as much at other positions.

Yeah I fall in the same boat. UZR seems to be useful for everything except 1B and catchers (which they haven't tried measuring yet).

**Coug00** · 12-03-2009, 02:18 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by JBH3

This is the issue (bolded), and while these back and forths occur most often between one or two Phillies fans and one of 'you' guys

...the concept is widely the same.

That being...we have an illustration of Howard being a better defender, at least last year, than Tex, slightly better than Pujols if at all, and better than quite a few other 1Bs that many OSBRA's would or have stated would take over Howard.

So now while this UZR-et all fielding illustration is staring you in the face and Howard is in the top8 among 20 other MLB 1Bs and I post what I do. The then response is to find some other statistic he is deficient in. It's a cyclical thing that seems to have no resolution.

The problem is that you said this...

Wait. So since Howard is above Pujols in UZR, has only one more error, and even though has less PO's his numbers on defense are still eerily similar...does this mean he moves up the list of where the OSBRSA ranks him?

The below is illustrating that Howard is better defensively than Teixiera, and the attached article is telling you to disregard your eyes and look at the numbers. The numbers show Howard to be a capable defensive 1B who we all know has a potent bat.

Your statement implies defense was the only thing holding Howard back from moving up the "list". Snepp's reply was to show you that his bat, according to wOBA, is 10th amongst 1B. I'd say that holds him back as well.

Here's more about wOBA. It strips most of the environmental variables from a player and normalizes their numbers against the rest of the league.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...e-joy-of-woba/

Originally posted by JBH3

So say next year he somehow improves this wOBA, all things fielding-wise stay relatively the same, then there will be another inconspicuous statistic by which to dismiss him.

There would be no reason not to move him up the "list". I still do not understand why you think SABR folks on this board have some sort of personal vendetta against Ryan Howard.

**snepp** · 12-03-2009, 02:22 PM

Re: UZR: Thoughts?

Originally posted by JBH3

This is the issue (bolded), and while these back and forths occur most often between one or two Phillies fans and one of 'you' guys

...the concept is widely the same.

That being...we have an illustration of Howard being a better defender, at least last year, than Tex, slightly better than Pujols if at all, and better than quite a few other 1Bs that many OSBRA's would or have stated would take over Howard.

So now while this UZR-et all fielding illustration is staring you in the face and Howard is in the top8 among 20 other MLB 1Bs and I post what I do. The then response is to find some other statistic he is deficient in. It's a cyclical thing that seems to have no resolution.

So say next year he somehow improves this wOBA, all things fielding-wise stay relatively the same, then there will be another inconspicuous statistic by which to dismiss him.

Have I over-shot my 'azimuth' so-to-speak w/ the above? I can't help notice these little nuances or intricacies in dealing w/ some on these boards.

I didn't post anything that said he was "deficient" in any way, that's an awfully egregious strawman, merely that the numbers support where I consider him among his peers.

You're the only that brought him up, and you're the one who suggested that his "ranking" be revised, so don't whine about the response you receive.

(oh, and Pujols career UZR is half a win (5 runs) better per season than Howard's,

)

UZR: Thoughts?

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