Top 5 Pitchers of all time

[redsoxallday]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Best 5 I've seen:

1. Pedro Martinez
2. Randy Johnson
3. Greg Maddux
4. Stephen Strasburg
5. Roy Halladay

All Time
1. Pedro Martinez
2. Cy Young
3. Walter Johnson
4. Sandy Koufax
5. Mike Marshall

In all honesty, I believe you should be shot and hung () for daring to put Strasburg in the top 5 you've seen. The guy has made 3 starts. Wait till a couple years down the road when batters figure out what exactly he brings to the table, then we'll see how good he really is.

Don't mean to be a ***** but Pedro is also in your top 5 of all-time?!! He was good, don't get me wrong but he wasn't THAT good, and Mike Marshall, seriously... I'm sure pitchers like Nolan Ryan, Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn, Bob Feller, and Bob Gibson would smack you.

[Speedy]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Best pitcher who will probably never see Cooperstown without buying a ticket due to his reported involvement with steroids.

Roger Clemens

Pre Toronto or after?

[SPTO]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

I'm just gonna list starters and ones that i've personally seen:

Nolan Ryan
Roger Clemens (pre Toronto)
Doc Gooden
Pedro Martinez
Roy Halladay

[JBH3]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

No problem and thanks for ranting about Carlton while not knowing your stuff.

Also, there is a reason no one mentioned Don Sutton and Phil Niekro besides you for a list of Top 5 pitchers of all-time. Both of them were HOF pitchers, but their careers stats are more the result of being very good for a long period than ever being a dominant starter. I doubt anyone would ever seriously rank Sutton or Niekro or Fergie Jenkins in the Top 15-20 starters of all-time let alone the top 5.

Based equally on career numbers and dominance, but entirely off the top of my head and in no particular order.....

Top 5 starters before 1969 - The years when the mound was higher, before the balls and the players were juiced, when the ballparks were bigger, when starters tried to pitch complete games, before most of the expansion happened, and most of them I never saw pitch a game in my life.

Walter Johnson
Bob Gibson
Bob Feller
Sandy Koufax
Warren Spahn


Top 6 starters since 1969 - Guys who played in the steroid era, juiced ball era, smaller new ballpark era, during most of the expansion and interleague era, and the days of the designated hitter, the closer, and the setup man.

Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Steve Carlton
Tom Seaver
Nolan Ryan
Pedro Martinez

Best pitcher who will probably never see Cooperstown without buying a ticket due to his reported involvement with steroids.

Roger Clemens

Thanks for tomahawking me.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Don't mean to be a ***** but Pedro is also in your top 5 of all-time?!! He was good, don't get me wrong but he wasn't THAT good, and Mike Marshall, seriously... I'm sure pitchers like Nolan Ryan, Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn, Bob Feller, and Bob Gibson would smack you.

First of all, this is going to be very painful, and I won't be able to sleep tonight, but even as a Yankee fan, I feel like I need to defend Pedro again here. This is a guy who dominated like no other pitcher has in the history of the game. In Gibson's best season, obviously '68 viewed as one of the greatest in history with a 1.12 ERA, his ERA+ was 258. In 2000, Pedro's was 291. That is insane. Pedro was most definitely THAT good. He was dominating like Sandy Koufax, except in the steroid era. And just for the record, Nolan Ryan, IMO, is the most overrated pitcher out there. ERA+ says he is only 12% better than average over his career. And just under 5 walks per 9. Don't get me wrong, he was a great pitcher. But nowhere near greatest of all time.

[Ewing]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Both Pedro and Carlton won pitching triple crowns, Carlton's numbers far surpass Pedro's, and Pedro is DieHardYankee's #1 pitcher of all-time? I don't see any merit in that.

Don't mean to be a ***** but Pedro is also in your top 5 of all-time?!! He was good, don't get me wrong but he wasn't THAT good, and Mike Marshall, seriously... I'm sure pitchers like Nolan Ryan, Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn, Bob Feller, and Bob Gibson would smack you.

Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all-time and it's not even close.

Pedro Martinez career strikeouts: 3,154
Pedro Martinez career baserunners allowed: 3,122

He's struck out more people than he's allowed on base in his career. Wanna know how many other pitchers with at least 2,000 strikeouts can say that? Nobody.

Among starting pitchers, Pedro Martinez is the all-time leader in career ERA+ and fourth all-time in career WHIP. The three starters ahead of him in WHIP are Addie Joss, Ed Walsh and John Ward. Ward played his entire career before 1900, so his accomplishments are pretty much irrelevant. Walsh and Joss both pitched in the early 1900's, so they have some more weight to their accomplishments. What does this all mean though? Outside of a trio of guys that pitched before games were even played at night, Pedro Martinez is the all-time leader in career ERA+ and WHIP. To boot, he's third all-time with a 4.15 K/BB ratio and the only guys ahead of him are Tommy Bond and Curt Schilling and Bond played back in the 1870's.

It gets even better though. Pedro is not only the career leader in ERA+ and WHIP but also he set the single season records for both... IN THE SAME SEASON. In 2000, he put up the greatest year by a pitcher in history with an insane 291 ERA+, 0.74 WHIP and 8.88 K/BB.

For kicks, let's compare him with Nolan Ryan, a man frequently heralded as one of the greatest pitchers of all-time and even more often regarded as "the greatest strikeout pitcher" of all-time.

Nolan Ryan career strikeouts: 5,714
Nolan Ryan career baserunners allowed: 6,876

Remember how Pedro struck out more guys than he let on? Ryan allowed over a thousand more guys on base than he struck out. We already know Pedro is the best when it comes to ERA+ and WHIP and is damn near the best in K/BB, but for giggles, lets see Ryan in comparison.

Pedro Martinez: 154 ERA+, 1.05 WHIP, 4.15 K/BB
Nolan Ryan: 111 ERA+, 1.25 WHIP, 2.04 K/BB

Kudos to DHY for keeping it real.

[Melanconfan]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

It gets even better though. Pedro is not only the career leader in ERA+ and WHIP but also he set the single season records for both... IN THE SAME SEASON. In 2000, he put up the greatest year by a pitcher in history with an insane 291 ERA+, 0.74 WHIP and 8.88 K/BB.

What I find most incredible about this is you could make a good argument he pitched better in '99,

99:
13.20 K/9
1.56 BB/9
0.38 HR/9
.343 BABIP
1.39 FIP
12.1 WAR

00:
11.78 K/9
1.33 BB/9
0.71 HR/9
.253 BABIP
2.17 FIP
10.1 WAR

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all-time and it's not even close.

Huh? Considering Pedro basically had a 6-year window, I would tend to avoid extreme statements like that.

It obviously comes down to whether or not you value legendary peak performance (Pedro) or sustained dominance (Maddux, Clemens, etc.). I'm receptive to arguments both ways, but I'll take the body of work over the short-term window. Keep in mind Maddux also had a historically great pitching stretch himself from '93-'95, along with his longevity, although it obviously isn't Pedro-esque.

[wrigleyville33]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Of my generation:
1. Roy Halladay
2. Pedro Martinez
3. Roger Clemens
4. Randy Johnson
5. Curt Schilling

[JBH3]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Huh? Considering Pedro basically had a 6-year window, I would tend to avoid extreme statements like that.

It obviously comes down to whether or not you value legendary peak performance (Pedro) or sustained dominance (Maddux, Clemens, etc.). I'm receptive to arguments both ways, but I'll take the body of work over the short-term window. Keep in mind Maddux also had a historically great pitching stretch himself from '93-'95, along with his longevity, although it obviously isn't Pedro-esque.

I guess in a round about way that's what I was getting at. Sustained dominance is what I would take hand over fist. Carlton had 18 seasons of 10 wins or more compared to Pedro's 12 seasons. Give me the add'l wins over the shorter career of Pedro; and yes while I know wins aren't solely the indicator of a good pitcher, he has just as much impact on them then his offense/defense. If Carlton's a 4,000 K pitcher...I'd say he had a significant impact on his wins sans exceptional defense/uber run production.

[redsoxallday]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all-time and it's not even close.

Ummm...noooo?? Pedro was great, fantastic, awsome, speaking as a Red Sox fan, again WAS he THAT good (to be considered the greatest of all-time)? I think not. I mean to be considered the best wouldn't you need 3,000+ SO and 300+ Wins? In my book you do. He has been injury prone since he left Boston, his first year with the Mets I believe was the only year he didn't go on the DL since he left Boston.

[Ewing]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Huh? Considering Pedro basically had a 6-year window, I would tend to avoid extreme statements like that.

It obviously comes down to whether or not you value legendary peak performance (Pedro) or sustained dominance (Maddux, Clemens, etc.). I'm receptive to arguments both ways, but I'll take the body of work over the short-term window. Keep in mind Maddux also had a historically great pitching stretch himself from '93-'95, along with his longevity, although it obviously isn't Pedro-esque.

I understand those who value long term greatness over a short period of time where someone was far and away the best in the game, I just disagree with it in some cases. For instance, Dave Kingman hit more home runs in his career than Ralph Kiner but you'd have to be clincally insane to say Kingman was a better home run hitter. Sure, he stuck around longer but Kiner lead the NL in home runs for seven straight years. Similarily, there's no way you can convince me Nolan Ryan was better than Pedro. I value statistics in context, such as "per nine innings", "per season" or however you want to put it. With enough playing time, anyone can put up a high total of strikeouts, hits or whatever you choose. It doesn't make it unimpressive by any means but it's certainly a contributing factor.

I mean to be considered the best wouldn't you need 3,000+ SO and 300+ Wins? In my book you do.

No. Wins are largely a meaningless statistic when talking about individual pitchers. If you feel they needed to be included, I'd look at winning percentage before I looked at total wins.

[redsoxallday]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

I understand those who value long term greatness over a short period of time where someone was far and away the best in the game, I just disagree with it in some cases. For instance, Dave Kingman hit more home runs in his career than Ralph Kiner but you'd have to be clincally insane to say Kingman was a better home run hitter. Sure, he stuck around longer but Kiner lead the NL in home runs for seven straight years. Similarily, there's no way you can convince me Nolan Ryan was better than Pedro. I value statistics in context, such as "per nine innings", "per season" or however you want to put it. With enough playing time, anyone can put up a high total of strikeouts, hits or whatever you choose. It doesn't make it unimpressive by any means but it's certainly a contributing factor.



No. Wins are largely a meaningless statistic when talking about individual pitchers. If you feel they needed to be included, I'd look at winning percentage before I looked at total wins.

I know where your coming from. Obviously Pedro is a first ballot HoF'r but I just wouldn't consider him the greatest of all-time. His wins are largely effected by injuries,and by age 33 it seemed he was washed up. If he stayed healthy until he was 40 (like Maddux, Johnson, Ryan) yes, he might very well be the best.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

I know where your coming from. Obviously Pedro is a first ballot HoF'r but I just wouldn't consider him the greatest of all-time. His wins are largely effected by injuries,and by age 33 it seemed he was washed up. If he stayed healthy until he was 40 (like Maddux, Johnson, Ryan) yes, he might very well be the best.

I see your point, but I guess for me I'll take the peak as opposed to the career. It doesn't impress me that Cy Young had 511 wins, which was the most of all time, when he also had the most losses of all time. I prefer a controlled period of absolute domination, like Pedro had, as opposed to the sustained greatness of a guy like Greg Maddux. This isn't true in all cases with me, but because Pedro's peak was so much greater than anything in history, he's my number 1. With all of the times that Sandy Koufax comes up in these discussions, I feel like Pedro was Koufax in the steroid era, propelling him to number 1 in my book.

[JBH3]

Re: Top 5 Pitchers of all time

Steve Carlton Pitching Stats for Years 1967 to 1984


<TABLE class="sortable stats_table"><THEAD><TR onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=left>Year</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle>Tm</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Wins')" align=middle>W</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Losses')" align=middle>L</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Win-Loss Percentage
W / (W + L)
For players, leaders need one decision for every ten team games.
For managers, minimum to qualify for leading is 320 games.')" align=middle>W-L%</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 * ER / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>ERA</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align=middle>G</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Started')" align=middle>GS</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Finished')" align=middle>GF</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Complete Game')" align=middle>CG</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Shutouts
No runs allowed and a complete game.')" align=middle>SHO</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Saves')" align=middle>SV</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Innings Pitched')" align=middle>IP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align=middle>H</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align=middle>R</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Earned Runs Allowed')" align=middle>ER</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align=middle>HR</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align=middle>BB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls
First tracked in 1955.')" align=middle>IBB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align=middle>SO</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align=middle>HBP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Balks')" align=middle>BK</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Wild Pitches')" align=middle>WP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Batters Faced')" align=middle>BF</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('ERA+
100*[lgERA/ERA]
Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s).')" align=middle>ERA+</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(BB + H)/IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>WHIP</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x H / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>H/9</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x HR / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>HR/9</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x BB / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>BB/9</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x SO / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>SO/9</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('SO/BB
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>SO/BB</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>1967-1984</TD><TD align=left>STL,PHI</TD><TD align=right>310</TD><TD align=right>204</TD><TD align=right>.603</TD><TD align=right>3.04</TD><TD align=right>633</TD><TD align=right>628</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>249</TD><TD align=right>54</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>4710.2</TD><TD align=right>4124</TD><TD align=right>1808</TD><TD align=right>1590</TD><TD align=right>349</TD><TD align=right>1577</TD><TD align=right>135</TD><TD align=right>3826</TD><TD align=right>47</TD><TD align=right>78</TD><TD align=right>159</TD><TD align=right>19416</TD><TD align=right>121</TD><TD align=right>1.210</TD><TD align=right>7.9</TD><TD align=right>0.7</TD><TD align=right>3.0</TD><TD align=right>7.3</TD><TD align=right>2.43</TD></TR><TR class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD colSpan=2>Average</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right>35</TD><TD align=right>35</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>262</TD><TD align=right>229</TD><TD align=right>100</TD><TD align=right>88</TD><TD align=right>19</TD><TD align=right>88</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>213</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>1079</TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffa" class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD colSpan=2>per 162 games</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right>35</TD><TD align=right>34</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>255</TD><TD align=right>223</TD><TD align=right>98</TD><TD align=right>86</TD><TD align=right>19</TD><TD align=right>86</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>207</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>1049</TD><TD align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Pedro Martinez Pitching Stats for Years 1993 to 2005


<TABLE class="sortable stats_table"><THEAD><TR onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=left>Year</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting" align=middle>Tm</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Wins')" align=middle>W</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Losses')" align=middle>L</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('Win-Loss Percentage
W / (W + L)
For players, leaders need one decision for every ten team games.
For managers, minimum to qualify for leading is 320 games.')" align=middle>W-L%</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 * ER / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>ERA</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Played or Pitched')" align=middle>G</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Started')" align=middle>GS</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Games Finished')" align=middle>GF</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Complete Game')" align=middle>CG</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Shutouts
No runs allowed and a complete game.')" align=middle>SHO</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Saves')" align=middle>SV</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Innings Pitched')" align=middle>IP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Hits/Hits Allowed')" align=middle>H</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Runs Scored/Allowed')" align=middle>R</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Earned Runs Allowed')" align=middle>ER</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Home Runs Hit/Allowed')" align=middle>HR</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Bases on Balls/Walks')" align=middle>BB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Intentional Bases on Balls
First tracked in 1955.')" align=middle>IBB</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Strikeouts')" align=middle>SO</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Times Hit by a Pitch.')" align=middle>HBP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Balks')" align=middle>BK</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Wild Pitches')" align=middle>WP</TH><TH class=tooltip onmouseover="Tip('Batters Faced')" align=middle>BF</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('ERA+
100*[lgERA/ERA]
Adjusted to the player’s ballpark(s).')" align=middle>ERA+</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('(BB + H)/IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>WHIP</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x H / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>H/9</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x HR / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>HR/9</TH><TH class="tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x BB / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>BB/9</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('9 x SO / IP
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>SO/9</TH><TH class="tooltip hide_non_quals" onmouseover="Tip('SO/BB
For recent years, leaders need 1 IP
per team game played')" align=middle>SO/BB</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD align=left>1993-2005</TD><TD align=left>LAD,MON,BOS,NYM</TD><TD align=right>197</TD><TD align=right>83</TD><TD align=right>.704</TD><TD align=right>2.72</TD><TD align=right>417</TD><TD align=right>351</TD><TD align=right>22</TD><TD align=right>46</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>2505.0</TD><TD align=right>1899</TD><TD align=right>833</TD><TD align=right>757</TD><TD align=right>194</TD><TD align=right>661</TD><TD align=right>24</TD><TD align=right>2853</TD><TD align=right>119</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>57</TD><TD align=right>10001</TD><TD align=right>167</TD><TD align=right>1.022</TD><TD align=right>6.8</TD><TD align=right>0.7</TD><TD align=right>2.4</TD><TD align=right>10.3</TD><TD align=right>4.32</TD></TR><TR class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD colSpan=2>Average</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>193</TD><TD align=right>146</TD><TD align=right>64</TD><TD align=right>58</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>51</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>219</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>769</TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffa" class=" stat_total" onmouseover=hl(this); onmouseout=uhl(this);><TD colSpan=2>per 162 games</TD><TD align=right>18</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right></TD><TD align=right>38</TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>223</TD><TD align=right>170</TD><TD align=right>75</TD><TD align=right>68</TD><TD align=right>18</TD><TD align=right>59</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>254</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>891</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


One is Steve Carlton, one is Pedro Martinez. While yes...Martinez had the sub 3.00 ERA, better win %, and I guess all the stats you guys love were better...Carlton ate up innings and did so at a 60% chance of winning games over a longer period of time. Give me Carlton.