Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I despise the Cubs.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Nope, just do the math yourself I guess. I'm surprised they don't have anything like this as far as real life numbers go, but I've been doing it the past for years for my sister's softball team as I said. I just do (PA-BB-HBP-SO)/(PA-BB-HBP). In other words, the number of times you put the ball in play given the number of opportunities.

I think the main point of my argument is that a strikeout is a completely unproductive out. Obviously a double play is less than productive (unless a run scores on it, in which case you're still not credited with an RBI), but if your level of production with home runs hit comes at the cost of striking out in over 25% of all opportunities you have to put the ball in place, that's quite shameful. Worse things can obviously be said for guys like Dunn and Reynolds, but at least Dunn does draw walks pretty often, so there still is some level of production there. But, he's not really a part of this Hall of Fame conversation, he is simply a reference point. For a man that swings so hard so often just to get a single statistic very high up, at the cost of how many strikeouts he has in comparison, isn't a very convincing argument to get my vote.

Then you have someone like Bonds who obviously has to be in this mix with the steroid talks (though I voided that subject matter for Sosa). His 700/500 numbers whilst being the home run king, plentiful amount of walks, just under .300 career batting average, and had there not been collusive snubbage from the MLB he was but 65 hits away from 3,000 and 4 RBI away from 2,000? Also maybe one of the only players to have more home runs than strikeouts in a 40+ HR season as well. I don't see how he could ever be ruled out.

Blzr,

You have had some hate for Sosa over the years and I can only think it's related to Bonds. Ignoring steroid talk, Sosa was for a 5 or 6 year run one of the best hitters in baseball. Did he strike out a lot? Absolutely. He also walked a lot (over 100 walks in two years and 80/90 walks in other years) and he actually was a good RF with a decent arm in the late 1990's/early 2000's. You have referred to him in the past as a one trick pony who just hit home runs, but the point is his OPS was well north of 1.000 and he was playing a solid RF. If the guy hadn't been linked to steroids (i.e. if what he had done was due to his talent), he would be a shoe in for the HOF.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

So Jim Rice shouldn't be in the HOF? He had a career 2.6 WAR.

Jim Rice is one of the worst players to have ever been inducted in the HOF, so no, he shouldn't.

Or how about Tony Gwynn and his 3.4 WAR?

It doesn't sound significant until it's taken cumulatively (O'Neill's WAR per season is actually 2.9 after I recalculated).

Baseball-Reference approximates that Gwynn was worth about 33 wins more over his entire career than O'Neill.

[snepp]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

Spoken like a silly Cubs fan.

This was a joke, right? (so tough to tell without smilies)

Or do you not think that Santo was one of the best third basemen in the game's history?

[Blzer]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

You have had some hate for Sosa over the years and I can only think it's related to Bonds.

Absolutely not, and I'll just leave it at that before this thread derails.

Ignoring steroid talk,...

I always ignore steroid talk when it comes to Sosa. There is no proof he ever took any steroids, and I always leave that out of the conversation as he shouldn't be a part of it until proven otherwise.

...Sosa was for a 5 or 6 year run one of the best hitters in baseball. Did he strike out a lot? Absolutely. He also walked a lot (over 100 walks in two years and 80/90 walks in other years) and he actually was a good RF with a decent arm in the late 1990's/early 2000's. You have referred to him in the past as a one trick pony who just hit home runs, but the point is his OPS was well north of 1.000 and he was playing a solid RF.

Very convincing argument and I'm sorry to have left defense out of the conversation for him and Bonds alike, because they were both better than good at their positions when they were most athletically capable. I think that could partly be a detriment for McGwire though as he wasn't ever known for his defense.

I still think that his level of production (and I throw that phrase around quite often it seems) did not match up when given everything that he had and hadn't done. Obviously his OPS will be higher with more home runs, but again when you look at numbers that are completely independent of home runs, you don't see much out of him. And again I left out defense earlier, but if there was one other number that was telling of him to have a great second tool (if his average was .020 points higher or his contact percentage was 10.0% higher or something), I would be swayed much, much more to give him his due. But as it stands I simply can't do so.

If the guy hadn't been linked to steroids (i.e. if what he had done was due to his talent), he would be a shoe in for the HOF.

Again, this topic notwithstanding, I am not quite convinced. Though I will argue he is a fringe candidate because the home runs do so much for him. I just don't like seeing the long ball as being a sole indication though.


Oh, and there is another thread that should be solely dedicated for guys who shouldn't be in the HOF that are, and Jim Rice is atop that list among others.

[dalnet22]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

This was a joke, right? (so tough to tell without smilies)

Or do you not think that Santo was one of the best third basemen in the game's history?

He's a fringe Hall of Famer and will never be selected. I'd like to know how Mike Schmidt is a worse 3rd baseman.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I'd like to know how Mike Schmidt is a worse 3rd baseman.

???

When did he ever say that?

[snepp]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

He's a fringe Hall of Famer and will never be selected. I'd like to know how Mike Schmidt is a worse 3rd baseman.

The largest strawman in the history of the world just called, he didn't appreciated you knocking him down so violently.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I've always wanted to post this image. Never has there been a better occasion.

[SPTO]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

It might seem a bit homer of me but I think Tony Fernandez is Hall worthy. Maybe not through voting (as we clearly saw) but I can see him as a Veterans write in. The guy was one of the best defensive Shortstops i've ever seen. He also put up some pretty good numbers for most of his career so he wasn't the typical "all glove, no bat" shortstop you saw in his era. He had some pop to his bat and had a few really good years especially his last full season with the Blue Jays where he flirted with .400 for most of the year.

He's also got a couple HOFers on his most similar list on Baseball-Reference so that helps

[GreenReign86]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I would like to nominate four. Jay Buhner, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff and Jaimey Moyer. All four are very deserving imo. But neither will probably get the nod.

I would also like to throw Shoeless Joe Jackson's name in the mix as well. He was guilty by association only, no evidence that he actually threw the 1919 WS. I mean how do you throw a WS where you had a .360 AVG and were the only player not to commit an error, on your team?

[Sportsforever]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I'll throw a name out there because I'm curious what folks think of his chances: Vladimir Guerrero. Personally I think he should be a shoe in, but I never hear anyone talk about him as a future HOF'r. Thoughts?

[Blzer]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I would like to nominate four. Jay Buhner, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff and Jaimey Moyer. All three are very deserving imo. But neither will probably get the nod.

Neither of the three?

I feel that just for longevity purposes, Jamie Moyer may get it. He's a player that I wouldn't shoo in, but I wouldn't revoke either. I don't have any personal stand on where he will end up.

I don't agree with Buhner, though he was a great Mariner and I loved him personally. And then there is my stand with designated hitters that I think just voids Martinez unfortunately. Baseball is a game of longevity, much like Moyer has shown throughout the years... and when you only play half of the game (the half which has you standing less) and you only have one focus in your career, your numbers should by all means be inflated. Martinez was a great DH and perhaps the greatest ever, but it's hard for me to vote them in.


EDIT: When I made this post I don't believe you had Fred McGriff mentioned. He is my favorite first baseman of all time and one of the reasons I started watching the Braves. That would probably be a homer vote for me to put him in though, but he was a fantastic player no doubt.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I would like to nominate four. Jay Buhner, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff and Jaimey Moyer. All four are very deserving imo. But neither will probably get the nod.

No, yes, no, and no, respectively.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Players Who Deserve To Be In The Hall of Fame But will Never get In

I'm not choosing McGwire or Sosa not because of their possible steroid usage (I mean that in the likes of Sosa), but because I don't like one-tool players making the Hall of Fame, almost like how I don't think designated hitters should be making their way into the Hall either.

Considering McGwire had a career .394 OBP, I'd call him more than a HR hitter.

The guy is one of the greatest sluggers in the history of baseball. If you want to make an argument that he shouldn't get in because of PEDs, fine, but there's no way he doesn't get in because of a lack of hitting ability.