who is the greatest player ever?

**bkrich83** · 09-11-2003, 11:28 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have a good point here, and another good underlying point- any player that played prior to the breaking of the color line (MLB or Negro Leagues) played against diluted competition

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes although the same thing could be said for Bonds. Back when Ruth played there were far fewer teams in the league, so there were also far fewer marginal players. In todays game Bonds is facing a lot of pitching, who if the league had the same amount of teams as back in Ruth's era, would be pitching in the minors.

I think the dilution of picthing talent as well as the shrinking of ballparks has as much to do with the recent homerun explosion as does the bigger stronger hitters.

As for greatest player, it's tough to say. I never saw Ruth or Gibson or Williams play. But I can say Bonds is the greatest player I have ever seen, with throwing ability being his only weakness. Tony Gwynn was the greatest pure hitter I have ever seen also. (Was also a base stealer and multiple winner of Gold Gloves).

So for me, I would say my vote goes to Bonds.

**thecomic** · 09-11-2003, 11:31 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

Glad to see someone mention Gwynn as best pure hitter, good call. I don't think the Giants ever got him out.

**thecomic** · 09-11-2003, 11:31 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

Glad to see someone mention Gwynn as best pure hitter, good call. I don't think the Giants ever got him out.

**thecomic** · 09-11-2003, 11:31 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

Glad to see someone mention Gwynn as best pure hitter, good call. I don't think the Giants ever got him out.

**bkrich83** · 09-11-2003, 11:35 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
thecomic said:
Glad to see someone mention Gwynn as best pure hitter, good call. I don't think the Giants ever got him out.

<hr /></blockquote>

Even Bonds said Gwynn was one of the very few players he would pay to see play. I feel Gwynn was pretty much underrated most of his career. Even when there was the big deal about him and Ripken retiring at the same time, Ripken got most of the press. But if you look at what they did in their career's Gwynn was equally as deserving as Ripken to get some pub. How many batting titles do you need to win to get some recognition from the East Coast press??

**bkrich83** · 09-11-2003, 11:35 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
thecomic said:
Glad to see someone mention Gwynn as best pure hitter, good call. I don't think the Giants ever got him out.

<hr /></blockquote>

Even Bonds said Gwynn was one of the very few players he would pay to see play. I feel Gwynn was pretty much underrated most of his career. Even when there was the big deal about him and Ripken retiring at the same time, Ripken got most of the press. But if you look at what they did in their career's Gwynn was equally as deserving as Ripken to get some pub. How many batting titles do you need to win to get some recognition from the East Coast press??

**bkrich83** · 09-11-2003, 11:35 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
thecomic said:
Glad to see someone mention Gwynn as best pure hitter, good call. I don't think the Giants ever got him out.

<hr /></blockquote>

Even Bonds said Gwynn was one of the very few players he would pay to see play. I feel Gwynn was pretty much underrated most of his career. Even when there was the big deal about him and Ripken retiring at the same time, Ripken got most of the press. But if you look at what they did in their career's Gwynn was equally as deserving as Ripken to get some pub. How many batting titles do you need to win to get some recognition from the East Coast press??

**TheTruth916** · 09-11-2003, 11:36 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
none of those guys are the greatest players. The Greatest player and the first black person that would have crossed over is "THE BLACK" Babe Ruth, "The Phenom" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

most negro league experts and players alike think Oscar Charleston was better than Gibson, as he was considered better defensively and on the basepaths while hitting for the batting average and homers like Gibson.

Oscar was a 1b and a manager and when Oscar came over to Pittsburgh Crawfords he was always second fiddle to Josh in batting average and homeruns and RBI. He doesn't have the numbers like Josh does and the only thing he had for him was that he was compared to Ruth and Cobb. Oscar had a career batting average of .379 I do believe and Gibson had a .391

"The Black Ty Cobb" Oscar Charleston

"The Black Babe Ruth" Josh Gibson

**TheTruth916** · 09-11-2003, 11:36 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
none of those guys are the greatest players. The Greatest player and the first black person that would have crossed over is "THE BLACK" Babe Ruth, "The Phenom" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

most negro league experts and players alike think Oscar Charleston was better than Gibson, as he was considered better defensively and on the basepaths while hitting for the batting average and homers like Gibson.

Oscar was a 1b and a manager and when Oscar came over to Pittsburgh Crawfords he was always second fiddle to Josh in batting average and homeruns and RBI. He doesn't have the numbers like Josh does and the only thing he had for him was that he was compared to Ruth and Cobb. Oscar had a career batting average of .379 I do believe and Gibson had a .391

"The Black Ty Cobb" Oscar Charleston

"The Black Babe Ruth" Josh Gibson

**TheTruth916** · 09-11-2003, 11:36 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
none of those guys are the greatest players. The Greatest player and the first black person that would have crossed over is "THE BLACK" Babe Ruth, "The Phenom" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

most negro league experts and players alike think Oscar Charleston was better than Gibson, as he was considered better defensively and on the basepaths while hitting for the batting average and homers like Gibson.

Oscar was a 1b and a manager and when Oscar came over to Pittsburgh Crawfords he was always second fiddle to Josh in batting average and homeruns and RBI. He doesn't have the numbers like Josh does and the only thing he had for him was that he was compared to Ruth and Cobb. Oscar had a career batting average of .379 I do believe and Gibson had a .391

"The Black Ty Cobb" Oscar Charleston

"The Black Babe Ruth" Josh Gibson

**cookusu** · 09-11-2003, 11:54 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
bkrich83 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have a good point here, and another good underlying point- any player that played prior to the breaking of the color line (MLB or Negro Leagues) played against diluted competition

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes although the same thing could be said for Bonds. Back when Ruth played there were far fewer teams in the league, so there were also far fewer marginal players. In todays game Bonds is facing a lot of pitching, who if the league had the same amount of teams as back in Ruth's era, would be pitching in the minors.

I think the dilution of picthing talent as well as the shrinking of ballparks has as much to do with the recent homerun explosion as does the bigger stronger hitters.

As for greatest player, it's tough to say. I never saw Ruth or Gibson or Williams play. But I can say Bonds is the greatest player I have ever seen, with throwing ability being his only weakness. Tony Gwynn was the greatest pure hitter I have ever seen also. (Was also a base stealer and multiple winner of Gold Gloves).

So for me, I would say my vote goes to Bonds.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don't think baseball is diluted today as you think. First population in the US and the world is much larger. Second, people of all races and countries are playing now. Third, back in Ruth's day it was conceivable that a major league quality player could have played semipro ball for years and never got a shot at the big leagues, because scouting and minor leagues weren't what they are today. Then training and conditioning weren't what they are today either. Ruth faced some pretty lame pitching in his time, the league has expanded as the population has expanded. Obvously a league of 16 teams today would be superior to a league of 30 something, but the league today is not worse than from Ruths era.

Basically there were marginal pitchers then and there are marginal pitchers now, most pitchers then didn't have more than 2 pitches, the starters generally stayed in a game even when they got smacked around. Now so much specialization, can't even imagine what is like to face Kevin Brown for 7 innings and the have Gagne coming out of the bullpen, I can guarantee Ruth didn't have the equivalent of that in his era.

I don't have a strong opinion on the greatest, part of my reluctance to name Bonds is cause I have seen him his whole career, I know his flaws, he used to strike out way too much, his arm as always been questionable, there were a few years where he seemed like he was mailing it in, in the field. So he is great but flawed.

The legend of Ruth, Mays and Mantle are not really flawed unless you read some decent historical accounts of their careers, then you realize they had bad years and slumps and detractors.

**cookusu** · 09-11-2003, 11:54 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
bkrich83 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have a good point here, and another good underlying point- any player that played prior to the breaking of the color line (MLB or Negro Leagues) played against diluted competition

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes although the same thing could be said for Bonds. Back when Ruth played there were far fewer teams in the league, so there were also far fewer marginal players. In todays game Bonds is facing a lot of pitching, who if the league had the same amount of teams as back in Ruth's era, would be pitching in the minors.

I think the dilution of picthing talent as well as the shrinking of ballparks has as much to do with the recent homerun explosion as does the bigger stronger hitters.

As for greatest player, it's tough to say. I never saw Ruth or Gibson or Williams play. But I can say Bonds is the greatest player I have ever seen, with throwing ability being his only weakness. Tony Gwynn was the greatest pure hitter I have ever seen also. (Was also a base stealer and multiple winner of Gold Gloves).

So for me, I would say my vote goes to Bonds.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don't think baseball is diluted today as you think. First population in the US and the world is much larger. Second, people of all races and countries are playing now. Third, back in Ruth's day it was conceivable that a major league quality player could have played semipro ball for years and never got a shot at the big leagues, because scouting and minor leagues weren't what they are today. Then training and conditioning weren't what they are today either. Ruth faced some pretty lame pitching in his time, the league has expanded as the population has expanded. Obvously a league of 16 teams today would be superior to a league of 30 something, but the league today is not worse than from Ruths era.

Basically there were marginal pitchers then and there are marginal pitchers now, most pitchers then didn't have more than 2 pitches, the starters generally stayed in a game even when they got smacked around. Now so much specialization, can't even imagine what is like to face Kevin Brown for 7 innings and the have Gagne coming out of the bullpen, I can guarantee Ruth didn't have the equivalent of that in his era.

I don't have a strong opinion on the greatest, part of my reluctance to name Bonds is cause I have seen him his whole career, I know his flaws, he used to strike out way too much, his arm as always been questionable, there were a few years where he seemed like he was mailing it in, in the field. So he is great but flawed.

The legend of Ruth, Mays and Mantle are not really flawed unless you read some decent historical accounts of their careers, then you realize they had bad years and slumps and detractors.

**cookusu** · 09-11-2003, 11:54 PM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
bkrich83 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have a good point here, and another good underlying point- any player that played prior to the breaking of the color line (MLB or Negro Leagues) played against diluted competition

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes although the same thing could be said for Bonds. Back when Ruth played there were far fewer teams in the league, so there were also far fewer marginal players. In todays game Bonds is facing a lot of pitching, who if the league had the same amount of teams as back in Ruth's era, would be pitching in the minors.

I think the dilution of picthing talent as well as the shrinking of ballparks has as much to do with the recent homerun explosion as does the bigger stronger hitters.

As for greatest player, it's tough to say. I never saw Ruth or Gibson or Williams play. But I can say Bonds is the greatest player I have ever seen, with throwing ability being his only weakness. Tony Gwynn was the greatest pure hitter I have ever seen also. (Was also a base stealer and multiple winner of Gold Gloves).

So for me, I would say my vote goes to Bonds.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don't think baseball is diluted today as you think. First population in the US and the world is much larger. Second, people of all races and countries are playing now. Third, back in Ruth's day it was conceivable that a major league quality player could have played semipro ball for years and never got a shot at the big leagues, because scouting and minor leagues weren't what they are today. Then training and conditioning weren't what they are today either. Ruth faced some pretty lame pitching in his time, the league has expanded as the population has expanded. Obvously a league of 16 teams today would be superior to a league of 30 something, but the league today is not worse than from Ruths era.

Basically there were marginal pitchers then and there are marginal pitchers now, most pitchers then didn't have more than 2 pitches, the starters generally stayed in a game even when they got smacked around. Now so much specialization, can't even imagine what is like to face Kevin Brown for 7 innings and the have Gagne coming out of the bullpen, I can guarantee Ruth didn't have the equivalent of that in his era.

I don't have a strong opinion on the greatest, part of my reluctance to name Bonds is cause I have seen him his whole career, I know his flaws, he used to strike out way too much, his arm as always been questionable, there were a few years where he seemed like he was mailing it in, in the field. So he is great but flawed.

The legend of Ruth, Mays and Mantle are not really flawed unless you read some decent historical accounts of their careers, then you realize they had bad years and slumps and detractors.

**dce1228** · 09-12-2003, 07:15 AM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
none of those guys are the greatest players. The Greatest player and the first black person that would have crossed over is "THE BLACK" Babe Ruth, "The Phenom" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

most negro league experts and players alike think Oscar Charleston was better than Gibson, as he was considered better defensively and on the basepaths while hitting for the batting average and homers like Gibson.

Oscar was a 1b and a manager and when Oscar came over to Pittsburgh Crawfords he was always second fiddle to Josh in batting average and homeruns and RBI. He doesn't have the numbers like Josh does and the only thing he had for him was that he was compared to Ruth and Cobb. Oscar had a career batting average of .379 I do believe and Gibson had a .391

"The Black Ty Cobb" Oscar Charleston

"The Black Babe Ruth" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

Awesome! a who's better within the negro leagues debate!

Comparing Josh to Oscar straight up for when they played together is difficult since Oscar began his career in the late teens and Josh in the 1930s. From what I've read about Oscar from experts of the time is that he hit home runs most every night, and that he was built like Ruth, small legs, barrel-chested-- but that he also, as you pointed out, played a hard nosed game on the field as well as the plate like Cobb. Frankly, I think cases could be made for either being better, but that both are in my top 10 for greatest players ever.

**dce1228** · 09-12-2003, 07:15 AM

Re: who is the greatest player ever?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
dce1228 said:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TheTruth916 said:
none of those guys are the greatest players. The Greatest player and the first black person that would have crossed over is "THE BLACK" Babe Ruth, "The Phenom" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

most negro league experts and players alike think Oscar Charleston was better than Gibson, as he was considered better defensively and on the basepaths while hitting for the batting average and homers like Gibson.

Oscar was a 1b and a manager and when Oscar came over to Pittsburgh Crawfords he was always second fiddle to Josh in batting average and homeruns and RBI. He doesn't have the numbers like Josh does and the only thing he had for him was that he was compared to Ruth and Cobb. Oscar had a career batting average of .379 I do believe and Gibson had a .391

"The Black Ty Cobb" Oscar Charleston

"The Black Babe Ruth" Josh Gibson

<hr /></blockquote>

Awesome! a who's better within the negro leagues debate!

Comparing Josh to Oscar straight up for when they played together is difficult since Oscar began his career in the late teens and Josh in the 1930s. From what I've read about Oscar from experts of the time is that he hit home runs most every night, and that he was built like Ruth, small legs, barrel-chested-- but that he also, as you pointed out, played a hard nosed game on the field as well as the plate like Cobb. Frankly, I think cases could be made for either being better, but that both are in my top 10 for greatest players ever.

who is the greatest player ever?

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