Are closers overrated?

[snepp]

Re: Are closers overrated?

I remember in 1995 the Red Sox started the year with Ken Ryan as their closer. Ryan could not setle down on the mound until he had walked at least two batters in an inning. Later that season they traded for Rick Aguilera, so the job is not for everybody.

Aka, the job isn't for ****ty pitchers like Ryan.

[IlliniM1ke]

Re: Are closers overrated?

I don't believe they are. The Cardinals would kill for a legitimate closer right now. How many games have been blown by their 'pen/closer by now?

Nothing else really needs to be said.

The Cardinals are showing everyone why a closer is needed, not overrated one bit.

9 blown saves, 12 successful saves, if that doesn't go to show how necessary a closer is I don't know what will.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: Are closers overrated?

As for Todd Jones, a lot of pitchers should not be closers, Jones at times was definitely one of them. .

Yeah, Jones has a ERA over 4 for his career but he has 319 saves. Over the last decade he was not very 'great' at all but he still managed to get saves. It's just tough watching him.

[Keirik]

Re: Are closers overrated?

if anything, closers are underrated. I don't think my Yankees come anywhere near the success they had if they didn't have Rivera on the team all these years.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Are closers overrated?

if anything, closers are underrated. I don't think my Yankees come anywhere near the success they had if they didn't have Rivera on the team all these years.

This is precisely the reason I think closers are extremely overrated.

The only difference between a pitcher blowing a game in the 1st and a pitcher blowing a game in the 9th is context. Either way, the team loses. So who is more valuable, the pitcher that has to not blow the game for six innings or the pitcher that has to not blow the game for one inning? Find any hack that can throw twenty 93-96 mph four-seamers and he'll be a good candidate to get 30 saves on a decent team. Put him on a team with bad offense or bad starting pitching and he won't be able to do much.

On top of that, many of the highest leverage situations are faced by set-up men that aren't even closers. If the closer comes on and gets the 7th and 8th batters plus a pinch hitter, how much of an accomplishment is that save when a middle reliever had to get out 1, 2, 3 earlier?

Yes, I know I'm descending into hyperbole, but the love and hate that closers get justifies it.

[snepp]

Re: Are closers overrated?

My favorite "saves" are the ones where the setup guy gets the heart of the order in the 8th with a 1-run lead, then the "closer" pitches the 9th with a 3-run lead against the dregs of the lineup.

[slickdtc]

Re: Are closers overrated?

There aren't many closers that are consistently valuable. Rivera, Hoffman... and? Lots of these guys flame out as soon as they pop up, it seems.

Ryan Franklin was great in 2009. Now he sucks. It's the life of a closer.

[Vince]

Re: Are closers overrated?

Imo your closer has to be able to get K's while having a good BB total. So not overrated and you can't put anyone in there and expect them to succeed.

[IlliniM1ke]

Re: Are closers overrated?

There aren't many closers that are consistently valuable. Rivera, Hoffman... and? Lots of these guys flame out as soon as they pop up, it seems.

Ryan Franklin was great in 2009. Now he sucks. It's the life of a closer.

Yeah the majority of them seem to have short shelf lives but it also isn't a position you can just throw anyone in and have success, the Cardinals have proven that time and time again this year.

There aren't many Rivera's out there so even if you have a dominant closer you always need to be thinking ahead to who your next one will be and get them groomed for it so you don't go through what the Cardinals are going through this year.

[12]

Re: Are closers overrated?

I agree with the general consensus here. I brought it up because I got in a debate with some guys from work that said closers are vastly overrated and any solid reliever could come in a game in the ninth and slam the door 90 percent of the time.

Granted, these are some of the same guys who tried telling me that Pete Rose was a better overall hitter than Ted Williams, but I wanted to see if their opinion on the closer role was widely shared by others.

I'm glad it's not.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Are closers overrated?

On top of that, many of the highest leverage situations are faced by set-up men that aren't even closers. If the closer comes on and gets the 7th and 8th batters plus a pinch hitter, how much of an accomplishment is that save when a middle reliever had to get out 1, 2, 3 earlier?

This is my whole problem with it. Too much is made out of the save stat. Salary and incentives are based on it. Until that changes, managers will continue to grossly misuse their best bullpen option to cater to the stat.

I don't know why pitchers need to be cast into such rigid "roles" in what is such a dynamic and situational game.

[theaub]

Re: Are closers overrated?

People overrate closers until they don't have one.

Yeah, having a good set-up man is important too and often times they face the highest leverage situation (but not as often as the anti-closer crowd says). But people hated BJ Ryan when he was here due to his contract, but you look at the numbers he put up the two years he was healthy compared to what the Jays have had for the last two years and its pretty obvious he was a very useful piece.

[lonewolf371]

Re: Are closers overrated?

People overrate closers until they don't have one.

Yeah, having a good set-up man is important too and often times they face the highest leverage situation (but not as often as the anti-closer crowd says). But people hated BJ Ryan when he was here due to his contract, but you look at the numbers he put up the two years he was healthy compared to what the Jays have had for the last two years and its pretty obvious he was a very useful piece.

Of course, it sucks to not have a closer. When your team is leading the game in the ninth and a reliever goes out there that blows the game, it's very demoralizing.

That being said, the Cardinals have a terrible bullpen and where are they? 1.5 games out of first place, and it took a sweep at the hands of the Reds to drop that far. The Padres have one of the best bullpens and one of the best closers in the majors, and where are they? Last place in the NL West.

It's the ultra pro-closer crowd that says Rivera is the main reason for the Yankees dynasty that really irks me.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Are closers overrated?

Yes, "closers" are overrated, but good pitchers are not. For example, Bill James has written extensively on this and shown that the way managers use closers today is just plain wrong. Why bring in your best relief pitcher to protect a 3-run lead in the 9th when you win that game 98% of the time with a AAA pitcher on the mound.

Instead, the "closer" should be brought in during the 7th/8th innings of a tie game to get maximum benefit from his innings. Snepp mentioned it already, but managers need to stop managing for a stat (the save) and start managing to win games. Unfortunately, agents/arbitration/money are what drive using Mo in the 9th with a 3-run lead instead of the 7th with the game tied.

[OriolesFanRD]

Re: Are closers overrated?

No, closers are not overrated. I wish I had one right now because Kevin Gregg isn't that guy. He's a fraud and along with Mike Gonzo, are robbing my Orioles blind.