Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

[12]

Thought I'd match the Pirates' thread with one of my own.

15th loss in a row today. The Red Sox lit Pineda up like a Christmas tree. His ERA is now at 3.64. It was at 2.30 about a month and a half ago. The kid is really struggling.

Felix is struggling as well. I think you kind of have to wonder how much of his recent struggles have been mental. The Mariners' offense, despite scoring a lot more lately, is atrocious. Dead last in baseball in most every major offensive category. I think if he gives up a couple runs, he thinks the game is over and he'll take a loss. He's a competitor and won't ever let up, but I think with all of our pitchers, that has to enter into their mind. Our team leader for ERA? Doug Fister at a very good 3.30, but he has a 3-11 record and will probably end up losing 17 or 18 games.

Dustin Ackley is by far our team's best hitter and it's not even close. This kid is going to end up being pretty special. His approach at the plate is a thing of beauty.

Ichiro has lost at least a full step and is in a steep decline. His .268 leads our team.

Brendan Ryan (BRENDAN RYAN!) is not that far behind for the team lead in average.

Justin Smoak started hot, and had many drooling at the thought of him being a staple in the middle of order for years to come, but he is now hitting .224 and has not hit a home run since June 12. I'm really starting to worry about this kid.

Jack Z is not a good GM. He can identify young talent but his veteran signings and acquisitions at the Major League level is horrible. Since he's been here, the M's are 104-159 and will have the worst offense in baseball two years in a row. He no longer gets a pass, despite the fact that most M's fans really liked him in the beginning.

Our front office = worst in baseball.

Ah, it sucks to be a M's fan.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

it's incredible to think - just 15 games ago they were .500, and were right on the heals of the Angels & Rangers.

I'm not sure what, if anything, can be solely blamed. I think losing Bedard hurt their pitching staff because he was having a good season. What's going on with Felix & Ichiro is just mind boggling. 2 bonafide and established superstars not performing anywhere near their "norm." I feel like Pineda's struggles are to be expected. His first time through the league, teams didn't know what to expect. Now, as he's facing teams for the 2nd and 3rd times, they are more prepared for him and are making it a lot tougher on him.

I love the mention of Dustin Ackley because I've been keeping up with the guy (as a UNC fan), and he really does show a lot of promise. I'm surprised by his power at the Major League level. 4 home runs already, when I figured he would probably hit 4 all season.

The pitching, as a whole, has been pretty solid until lately. Vargas, Felix, Pineda, Fister, Bedard, & Beavan have all been solid, for the most part.

If I had to choose what to blame, I'd say the offense and lack of a legitimate power and RBI threat in the middle of the line up. Maybe it's time for the hitting coach to go - try bringing my favorite player, Griffey Jr. out to help with the hitting. Or maybe even Griffey Sr., as he has experience as a hitting coach.

It's incredible to think that just 2 seasons ago, this team went 85-77. I would honestly say that one thing that may be lacking is veteran leadership. I remember that season, that Mike Sweeney and Ken Griffey Jr. played HUGE roles in that team making the turn-around they made. and I, for the life of me, can't understand why Jack Z has refused to resign Russell Branyan in each of the last 2 offseasons. he has been nothing but productive for the M's when he plays for them (in 2009 and in the second half of last year).

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

I don't really understand it, to be honest.

Guess it's just a matter of time until it all starts to gel.

[ty5oke]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

I still have full trust in Jack Z. Nobody would of thought the Figgins contract would turn in to this mess, so I give him a pass on that. Other than that, he hasn't had any money to spend. I think the future is bright and his job was to rebuild the organization, not put a championship team together right away.

He also made a pretty smart move getting Cliff Lee that pretty much ended up with us getting Smoak/Beaven/Lueke for Gillies/Lowe/Amount/JC Ramirez.

With all the young talent (Smoak/Ackley/Walker/Paxton/Pineda/Felix) and the fact that he will finally have some room with 20M-30M (depending on ARB) coming off the books this year, I am far more excited now than I was when we won 80+ a few years ago.

I don't think the Cust/Olivo/Branyan/Griffey signings were ever meant to put this team into the playoffs but more of get me over signings until the team is ready to compete. Now if only he would of had the sense to move Ichiro before his decline. A .275 singles hitter is not where I want $18M to go.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

You can blame anyone you want:

When you have Eric Wedge as your manager, your team will suck.

[Coug00]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

You can blame anyone you want:

When you have Eric Wedge as your manager, your team will suck.

This

I still have full trust in Jack Z. Nobody would of thought the Figgins contract would turn in to this mess, so I give him a pass on that. Other than that, he hasn't had any money to spend. I think the future is bright and his job was to rebuild the organization, not put a championship team together right away.

He also made a pretty smart move getting Cliff Lee that pretty much ended up with us getting Smoak/Beaven/Lueke for Gillies/Lowe/Amount/JC Ramirez.

With all the young talent (Smoak/Ackley/Walker/Paxton/Pineda/Felix) and the fact that he will finally have some room with 20M-30M (depending on ARB) coming off the books this year, I am far more excited now than I was when we won 80+ a few years ago.

I don't think the Cust/Olivo/Branyan/Griffey signings were ever meant to put this team into the playoffs but more of get me over signings until the team is ready to compete. Now if only he would of had the sense to move Ichiro before his decline. A .275 singles hitter is not where I want $18M to go.

And this.

Jack Z is not a good GM. He can identify young talent but his veteran signings and acquisitions at the Major League level is horrible. Since he's been here, the M's are 104-159 and will have the worst offense in baseball two years in a row. He no longer gets a pass, despite the fact that most M's fans really liked him in the beginning.

Our front office = worst in baseball.

Ah, it sucks to be a M's fan.

After reading your post, if we had a "whiny, bandwagon Seattle sports fan button" on this site (similar to the like button), I would have pressed it. Z has been handcuffed from day 1 due to the Gillick and Bavasi regimes gutting the farm system. And where are all these poor veteran acquisitions? Figgins is one, but that was a good signing at the time. No one would have guessed he would have fallen off a cliff. The other non-impact free agent signings were just patchwork due to a constrained budget. Were the acquisitions of Bedard, Lee, Guti, Vargas, Branyon, Ryan, League, Aardsma not beneficial to the team?

This team wasn't supposed to compete this year anyways. The fact that they were in the race for over 3 months is impressive, IMO.

[Chaos81]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

What's going on with Felix & Ichiro is just mind boggling.

Not much mind boggling about a 37-year-old falling apart. The mind boggling part is that he was able to hit as well as he has, for as long as he has.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

Not much mind boggling about a 37-year-old falling apart. The mind boggling part is that he was able to hit as well as he has, for as long as he has.

What I meant, but didn't elaborate on, is - it's shocking to see him fall this far off this suddenly. I would've expected a more gradual decline over the course of a couple of season. not a 214 hit, .315 season, followed by a .266 season, with 110 hits heading into the end of July. just very sudden, and I figured if any 37 year old could keep it up, it would be Ichiro.

[12]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

After reading your post, if we had a "whiny, bandwagon Seattle sports fan button" on this site (similar to the like button), I would have pressed it. Z has been handcuffed from day 1 due to the Gillick and Bavasi regimes gutting the farm system. And where are all these poor veteran acquisitions? Figgins is one, but that was a good signing at the time. No one would have guessed he would have fallen off a cliff. The other non-impact free agent signings were just patchwork due to a constrained budget. Were the acquisitions of Bedard, Lee, Guti, Vargas, Branyon, Ryan, League, Aardsma not beneficial to the team?

This team wasn't supposed to compete this year anyways. The fact that they were in the race for over 3 months is impressive, IMO.

Gee, thanks. You might be a member of the "OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association" but your post is a weak little attempt at flaming me for my opinion. Take the little petty insult somewhere else. I am anything but a bandwagon fan. I've been watching and loving this team ever since I was 7-years-old. That's 23 years. That's nearly 80 percent of my life. My summers growing up involved a heavy dose of Dave and Rick in the booth while riding around in my dad's truck. You can go ahead and think what you want, and perhaps someone here can get that button created for you and you can press it on me all day long.

I agree that Z has been handcuffed and I might be damn wrong about him. I might be giving up on him entirely too fast, but 15-game losing streaks will do that to you. We've had our best starting pitching rotation in our team's history and it's been absolutely wasted. I give credit to Z for bolstering our team's farm system. No one can say otherwise, but he needs to produce some results at the Major League level as well. We need to be a tad bit more competitive. Yeah, we did better than most thought we would for half a season, but we're on the fast track to 100+ losses again.

M's fans are on edge right now. Four playoff appearances in 34 years, no World Series appearances, and another season down the drain. You're right, no one expected us to compete this year, but is that really an excuse? That's an excuse doled out by a losing fan base. It's a loser's mentality and I guess I'm just never buying into that.

You can all you want.

[SPTO]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

What I meant, but didn't elaborate on, is - it's shocking to see him fall this far off this suddenly. I would've expected a more gradual decline over the course of a couple of season. not a 214 hit, .315 season, followed by a .266 season, with 110 hits heading into the end of July. just very sudden, and I figured if any 37 year old could keep it up, it would be Ichiro.

It's the ravages of time, before the steroid era when players used whatever they could to prolong their careers the decline wasn't so noticable but MLB history is replete with guys who've played for ages and then suddenly fall off the face of the earth at age 35-37. It was bound to happen with Ichiro though I do agree with you, I thought Ichiro would have a more steady decline rather than falling apart like he has.

As for the M's overall, I say let's be patient. I think they have the makings of a very dominant pitching rotation with King Felix, Doug Fister (who really should have a better record than he does) and Michale Paneda. (that kid reminds me of a young Dave Stewart, not exactly with his stuff but his mechanics and demeanor on the mound) The M's have a lot of young bats too and young guys take a while sometimes to figure it out in the big leagues.

I really think the M's should continue to invest in young players but at the same time find PROVEN quality veterans to help the kids along. I would also think long and hard about firing Eric Wedge and bringing in a younger manager who can relate more with the kids and be more of a teacher rather than some old fart on the bench who thinks "looking tough" is equal to being mentally tough. (I mean seriously, what was with that fu manchu Wedge had going on?!)

[WazzuRC]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

We've had our best starting pitching rotation in our team's history and it's been absolutely wasted.

I'd argue our rotation has been the biggest weakness during the last week of this streak. Bottom line, this team is just not good. Our bullpen and rotation was way better than I expected up until this streak, and the offense is about what I thought it'd be. Pathetically bad, and only slightly better than last year.

I'm still a Jack Z believer. I think he's done a pretty good job with what he's had to work with and has done a 180 to the minor league system. I don't fault him for Figgins since nobody saw that coming, Guti has been a disaster at the plate unexpectedly, and this is the first year Ichiro has finally shown he's slowing down.

[Coug00]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

Gee, thanks. You might be a member of the "OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association" but your post is a weak little attempt at flaming me for my opinion. Take the little petty insult somewhere else. I am anything but a bandwagon fan. I've been watching and loving this team ever since I was 7-years-old. That's 23 years. That's nearly 80 percent of my life. My summers growing up involved a heavy dose of Dave and Rick in the booth while riding around in my dad's truck. You can go ahead and think what you want, and perhaps someone here can get that button created for you and you can press it on me all day long.

I agree that Z has been handcuffed and I might be damn wrong about him. I might be giving up on him entirely too fast, but 15-game losing streaks will do that to you. We've had our best starting pitching rotation in our team's history and it's been absolutely wasted. I give credit to Z for bolstering our team's farm system. No one can say otherwise, but he needs to produce some results at the Major League level as well. We need to be a tad bit more competitive. Yeah, we did better than most thought we would for half a season, but we're on the fast track to 100+ losses again.

M's fans are on edge right now. Four playoff appearances in 34 years, no World Series appearances, and another season down the drain. You're right, no one expected us to compete this year, but is that really an excuse? That's an excuse doled out by a losing fan base. It's a loser's mentality and I guess I'm just never buying into that.

You can all you want.

My post was a flame? I call it me being tired of people going on whiny rants when the Mariners go on a losing streak after playing well above their talent level most of the year. Z hasn't even been in control of the M's for 3 full seasons, has tried to build them up through the farm system, and some impatient M's fans are already giving up on him. That, to me, is bandwagon 101. Support the team like crazy when they're winning, but bash them when they start losing. Its the same crap that has plagued the Sonics, Huskies, and Seahawks in the past. Seattle is a bandwagon town...and this comes from a lifelong Washingtonian and former Seattle resident.

And you can call it a losing mentality, but I'll call it buying into reason, logic, and patience. At this point in time, the Mariners don't have the budget or the talent in the farm system to magically compete overnight against the Rangers and Angels. Their budget is big enough to resign some talent they bring up through their system and make some medium level free agent signings. The only way the M's are going to consistently win with a $94m payroll is to continually bring up quality talent to replace the players who have become too expensive to resign. Obviously, that takes time and the M's are barely 2.5 years removed from Bill Bavasi.

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

It's hard to win baseball games when you have players like Ryan hitting 2nd and Kennedy hitting 3rd before Ackley moved up in the batting order.

I think there's a chance Jack Z gets dumped after the season (I wouldn't fire him if I was in charge). It's 2 years in a row now he hasn't been able to produce a competent offense. Once you throw in the Lueke situation, it doesn't look good for him. The farm system is also in terrible shape when it comes to hitting prospects.

On a semi-related note, Dave Cameron from U.S.S. Mariner announced he has cancer. I believe he's only 30 or 31 years old.

[12]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

My post was a flame? I call it me being tired of people going on whiny rants when the Mariners go on a losing streak after playing well above their talent level most of the year. Z hasn't even been in control of the M's for 3 full seasons, has tried to build them up through the farm system, and some impatient M's fans are already giving up on him. That, to me, is bandwagon 101. Support the team like crazy when they're winning, but bash them when they start losing. Its the same crap that has plagued the Sonics, Huskies, and Seahawks in the past. Seattle is a bandwagon town...and this comes from a lifelong Washingtonian and former Seattle resident.

And you can call it a losing mentality, but I'll call it buying into reason, logic, and patience. At this point in time, the Mariners don't have the budget or the talent in the farm system to magically compete overnight against the Rangers and Angels. Their budget is big enough to resign some talent they bring up through their system and make some medium level free agent signings. The only way the M's are going to consistently win with a $94m payroll is to continually bring up quality talent to replace the players who have become too expensive to resign. Obviously, that takes time and the M's are barely 2.5 years removed from Bill Bavasi.

I laughed too. No, it wasn't a flame. I was much too sensitive there.

I am not in a camp by myself, though. Many M's fans are done. That doesn't mean that they're bandwagon fans. This organization has given us very little to be excited about since their existence. Fans support the team in different ways.

I got riled up because you called me a whiner and a bandwagon fan. Or at least that's how I saw it, and that's so far from the truth. You make great points and I don't wish to argue about it. We do see some things differently but there's nothing wrong with that.

[12]

Re: Thoughts on disastrous Mariners?

Does anyone think the M's can keep Felix?

He's 21-21 over his last 42 decisions with an ERA of about 2.50. At some point, the kid has to get tired of not having much run support. His body language during his last start in Boston was pretty alarming.

He says he loves Seattle, but we've heard that before from other past stars.

I don't like bringing up Felix being dealt, but would it benefit to trade him and get a huge haul in return? I don't want it to happen, but sometimes I wonder if it would be for the best. He has two years left on his deal I think, and if things don't drastically improve, I don't know if I'm buying the fact that he will sign another deal with the M's.