Pitch counts are dumb!

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  • CabreraMVP
    MVP
    • Sep 2010
    • 1437

    #1

    Pitch counts are dumb!

    After Verlander throwing 131 tonight and people crying that his arm will fall off, I'm inspired to make this post.

    They say that for 12 year olds in little league, if you throw 85 pitches, you need 5 days rest. And somehow, major leaguers, need 5 days rest after 100?

    The difference between a 12 year and Verlander is just 15 pitches more per start? From a frail little kid to a major leaguer in his prime is just 15 more pitches per start? There's no way.

    And we can look at history, where pitchers would throw until the game was over. Even into the 80's, pitchers would finish what they started. And in this age, of advanced medicine/more emphasis on mechanics with the use of technology, and somehow pitchers arms are weaker and can't throw past 100?

    I believe that the more you throw, the stronger your arm is. It's common sense that's been proven throughout history. Pitchers tire at 100 pitches beceause they are never able to go past that, that's where there arm is maxed out. If you gradually increase pitch count from start to start, you'll strengthen your arm.

    Verlander averages 121 pitches per start. Most in baseball. He's thrown the most pitches in the past two years. He has the hardest average fastball. He's never in his professional career missed a single start. He can reach 100 even after 130 pitches. Why? Because Leyland over the years has stretched him out to the point that he can throw 125 per start.

    Sure, Verlander is a little lucky on the genetics side to have a rubber arm (mechanics are great though) but if you stretch out your pitchers, they can all do the same thing. The Rangers have shown this.

    Nolan Ryan threw 262 pitches in a game once and still pitched another 23 years after that. Nothing has changed since then to make pitchers more fragile.

    If you have good mechanics, and build up your arm, you can throw a lot more is what I'm trying to say. It's one of the most strangest things in sports that as technology got better, athletes got bigger, that they suddently can pitch half as long as players just 20 years ago. Where's the logic?

    Athletes in all sports are just bigger, stronger, than they used to be. NBA players went from finesse guys, with fundamentals, and within 20 years you have guys dunking over each other and dunking on 12 foot rims. Football has guys doing cartwheels over defenders to the endzone. And 6'5 recievers who are the fastest players on the field and can cover like a a full garage with their wingspan, or whatever Sports Science said about Calvin Johnson. And somehow in baseball, everything went backwards.

    I threw 130 pitches in a game last season, and I don't work out my arm nearly half as much as a typical high school pitcher. I don't even play for my school. But 2 days later I could pitch again and I kept throwing for 2 months after that without any problems. I would pitch to my friend and throw 100. I just make sure to build up gradually each time. I'm half as strong as the typical 18 year old pitcher! When I put every ounce of my body into a pitch I can hit like 76. These other kids my age hit 85 when they aren't even trying, But yet the coach yanks when they get around 75 pitches in games. It's crazy to me.

    Sorry to rant but I want to hear peoples opinions on this.
    JayElectronicaBluElzhi2PacTheNotoriousB.I.G.ReksSc arfaceFashawnJeruThaDamaja
  • 24
    Forever A Legend
    • Sep 2008
    • 2809

    #2
    Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

    While I do Agree that Pitchers are babied nowadays the concept of a Pitch Count is not dumb. Take it from someone who has went through Rotator Cuff surgery twice and Tommy John surgery once, Pitch counts are needed. This is not the 1960's where their were no restrictions placed on Pitchers and they were throwing every 4th day. We now know the significant damage high pitch count's can do especially to the arms of young teens.


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    • BatsareBugs
      LVP
      • Feb 2003
      • 12553

      #3
      Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

      Pitch counts are probably a necessary evil. Established guys don't really need them, but younger players definitely do. Not everyone has perfect mechanics and not everyone can pitch over a haul of 30+ games. Sure there were pitchers back in the day who could pitch without any pitch count and go every three days, but in those days if you were got injured, you were done for.

      Nowadays people don't want to be liable for ruining a kid's arm or a young player's arm. Pitchers are pretty big investments, especially the young, talented ones. I think any of them can go on 100+ pitches for one game, but in a season that will ruin them.

      Comment

      • Cardot
        I'm not on InstantFace.
        • Feb 2003
        • 6164

        #4
        Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

        Apu: Quite a donnybrook, eh, Mr. Burns?

        Mr. Burns: Balderdash! Why, I once watched "Gentleman" Jim Corbett fight an Eskimo fellow bare-knuckled for a hundred and thirteen rounds! Of course, back then, if a fight lasted less than fifty rounds, we demanded our nickel back!

        Comment

        • snepp
          We'll waste him too.
          • Apr 2003
          • 10007

          #5
          Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

          I don't think they're dumb, I just think that they're poorly applied.
          Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

          Comment

          • 55
            Banned
            • Mar 2006
            • 20857

            #6
            Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

            Originally posted by CabreraMVP
            Nolan Ryan threw 262 pitches in a game once...
            I tried looking this up and found nothing. I'm not saying I don't believe you but where did you hear this?

            Comment

            • hitstreak13
              MVP
              • Sep 2008
              • 1117

              #7
              Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

              Originally posted by 55
              I tried looking this up and found nothing. I'm not saying I don't believe you but where did you hear this?
              I can't find anything either, BUT I do remember they mentioned (in MLB network) that Ryan threw 200+ pitches in a game a handful of times.

              Pitch counts are a bit overrated, but it is the way the game is today. You can say the same thing about "closers" "LOOGY" etc. The game has evolved and is far more specialized. I mean, imagine the heat Leyland will take if Verlander throws 130+ pitches in his next start and blows an elbow? Fans will ask for his head.
              Angels= 2025 World Series Champions!!

              Comment

              • JBH3
                Marvel's Finest
                • Jan 2007
                • 13506

                #8
                Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                Nolan Ryan would be the exception, not the rule.
                Originally posted by Edmund Burke
                All that is needed for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.

                Comment

                • Ben9753
                  Rookie
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 88

                  #9
                  Originally posted by hitstreak13
                  I I mean, imagine the heat Leyland will take if Verlander throws 130+ pitches in his next start and blows an elbow? Fans will ask for his head.
                  As a big Tiger's fan, I really don't think this is true. If he let, say, Rick Porcello throw 130 pitches and then he blows out his elbow, yeah, he deserves to be fired, but with Verlander everyone in the fan base knows that they would do the same thing with Verlander, I don't think anyone would blame Leyland.
                  Also to the OP, as a fellow Tigers fan we can agree that pitch counts for a guy like Verlander and Ryan are not a big issue, and luckily Leyland seems to agree, but what if Leyland let Porcello or Fister throw 130 pitches? Almost every pitcher other than Verlander experiences a loss of velocity in the late innings, that is indicative of a tiring arm, which leads to a loss of command and flat pitches over the plate that Major Leaguers are going to hammer. In a late ball game, with the score close, you can't blame a manager for going to his pen even if the starter is at 110-115 pitches. You can call that a pitch count, or just a manager doing what he thinks gives his team the best chance to win the game.

                  Comment

                  • JBH3
                    Marvel's Finest
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 13506

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Ben9753
                    As a big Tiger's fan, I really don't think this is true. If he let, say, Rick Porcello throw 130 pitches and then he blows out his elbow, yeah, he deserves to be fired, but with Verlander everyone in the fan base knows that they would do the same thing with Verlander, I don't think anyone would blame Leyland.
                    Also to the OP, as a fellow Tigers fan we can agree that pitch counts for a guy like Verlander and Ryan are not a big issue, and luckily Leyland seems to agree, but what if Leyland let Porcello or Fister throw 130 pitches? Almost every pitcher other than Verlander experiences a loss of velocity in the late innings, that is indicative of a tiring arm, which leads to a loss of command and flat pitches over the plate that Major Leaguers are going to hammer. In a late ball game, with the score close, you can't blame a manager for going to his pen even if the starter is at 110-115 pitches. You can call that a pitch count, or just a manager doing what he thinks gives his team the best chance to win the game.
                    I would blame Leyland and I am not a Tigers fan. There's more of a science to pitching than ever before. I think it only prudent to adhere to that, understanding that the motion of throwing a baseball is inherently wrong with how the human body is structured.

                    It is Leylands job to preserve all of his players, espeically his most precious asset, Justin Verlander. There are far more important games to come, ones where Verlander will need to reach back and go the distance.

                    Sent from my Droid, most likely when I've been taking a dump.
                    Originally posted by Edmund Burke
                    All that is needed for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.

                    Comment

                    • Dog
                      aka jnes12/JNes__
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 11846

                      #11
                      Pitch counts are dumb because people read too much into it. You have to actually watch the pitcher to be able to gauge whether his pitch count is an issue or not. For example, Roy Halladay may be nearing 110 pitches, but he has been on point all night, wasn't laboring on the mound, and isn't showing signs of being tired. So you leave him in. Conversely, Cliff Lee has 80 pitches, but he has struggled all night and is showing signs that he is getting worn down. You take him out

                      Moral of the story is pitch counts are relevant, but you need your eyes to tell how relevant they are


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      Eagles | Phillies | Sixers | Flyers
                      PSN: JNes__

                      Comment

                      • Sandman42
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Aug 2004
                        • 15186

                        #12
                        Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                        Wait so because Verlander and Nolan Ryan throw a lot of pitches, so you think all pitchers should be throwing more. They react differently to how many pitches they throw. Verlander and Halladay can maintain their effectiveness over 120+ pitches and 4 times through the order. Most other pitchers can't, they start getting wild or get hit harder since the hitters have had multiple looks at them.

                        I don't have the stats in front of me but I remember reading some article (might have been on Tango and MGL's blog if someone wants to search) that tracked pitcher effectiveness based on how many times through the order they went. Once they reached the third time through the order their Avg/OBP/SLG against was much higher than the first 2 times through. Now its not going to effect elite pitchers as much because they are really good, but most elite pitchers also throw 120+ pitches and go late into games. With most other pitchers your best bet is to take them out and put in your relievers to give your team a better chance of winning.
                        Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

                        Comment

                        • ab713
                          Rookie
                          • Dec 2002
                          • 315

                          #13
                          Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                          Having had shoulder surgery, I still do not believe in pitch counts. If you have sound mechanics, arm strength, and a good work ethic, your pitch count should only be determined by how long you can be effective in a game.

                          I would have to say that it is the luck of the draw though. Some people are born with an arm that never tires, and others can throw only one ball in their entire life and blow out their elbow.
                          Last edited by ab713; 04-17-2012, 09:32 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Perfect Zero
                            1B, OF
                            • Jun 2005
                            • 4012

                            #14
                            Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                            First of all, Nolan Ryan was a freak of nature. I guarantee you that there will never be a 20+ year pitcher who throws over 5,000 strikeouts and has 19 games with only one hit, seven of them being no-hitters.

                            That being said, there is a place for pitch counts, but good mechanics and good work ethic will eliminate the need for always looking over the shoulder as the counter runs up. If the pitch count is a permanent barrier for pitchers, they will start to lose their grip as the counter reaches 100 (or whatever number).

                            Pitch counts are good for Little Leaguers as they are not fully developed in the pitching department. Once you head to the big leagues though, that pitch count becomes an arbitrary number. There's nothing wrong with letting Verlander throw 120+ if he's throwing well. I say the same thing about our staff when they go out on the field.

                            EDIT: I wanted to respond to this...

                            Originally posted by Sandman42
                            Once they reached the third time through the order their Avg/OBP/SLG against was much higher than the first 2 times through. Now its not going to effect elite pitchers as much because they are really good, but most elite pitchers also throw 120+ pitches and go late into games. With most other pitchers your best bet is to take them out and put in your relievers to give your team a better chance of winning.
                            Don't you think this is more about hitters recognizing the pitches better the third time through?
                            Last edited by Perfect Zero; 04-17-2012, 08:43 AM.
                            Rangers - Cowboys - Aggies - Stars - Mavericks

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                            • roadman
                              *ll St*r
                              • Aug 2003
                              • 26339

                              #15
                              Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                              For every Justin Verlander there is a Sandy Koufax, pouring his elbow in ice water after every game and retiring at the age of 30.

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