Pitch counts are dumb!

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  • N51_rob
    Faceuary!
    • Jul 2003
    • 14805

    #16
    I think it was in ESPN the Mag, but there was an article about pitchers. Basically it's is their mechanics that cause all these elbow problems. They did a side by side comparison of a pitcher with near "perfect" mechanics (Greg Maddux) and one with really "poor" mechanics (Stephen Strasburg).

    I tend to think it is mechanics that do more damage than pitch counts. I think with pitchers who throw sliders and have bad mechanics pitch counts are necessary IMO.

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    • roadman
      *ll St*r
      • Aug 2003
      • 26339

      #17
      Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

      Originally posted by N51_rob
      I think it was in ESPN the Mag, but there was an article about pitchers. Basically it's is their mechanics that cause all these elbow problems. They did a side by side comparison of a pitcher with near "perfect" mechanics (Greg Maddux) and one with really "poor" mechanics (Stephen Strasburg).

      I tend to think it is mechanics that do more damage than pitch counts. I think with pitchers who throw sliders and have bad mechanics pitch counts are necessary IMO.

      Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
      I'm not so sure, though.

      Mark Prior was suppose to have one of the best mechanics entering the pros and look what happened to him.

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      • TracerBullet
        One Last Job
        • Jun 2009
        • 22119

        #18
        Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

        Originally posted by roadman
        I'm not so sure, though.

        Mark Prior was suppose to have one of the best mechanics entering the pros and look what happened to him.
        Playing for the Cubs will do that to you.
        Originally posted by BlueNGold
        I feel weird for liking a post about exposed penises.

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        • roadman
          *ll St*r
          • Aug 2003
          • 26339

          #19
          Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

          Originally posted by TracerBullet
          Playing for the Cubs will do that to you.
          And Dusty Baker.

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          • BatsareBugs
            LVP
            • Feb 2003
            • 12553

            #20
            Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

            Originally posted by roadman
            And Dusty Baker.
            Poor Mat Latos.

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            • DrJones
              All Star
              • Mar 2003
              • 9109

              #21
              Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

              I don't think most people who advocate pitch counts are concerned about vets like Verlander and Halladay. But for under-25 guys who have never pitched anywhere near 200+ innings before? Damn right people should be cautious with pitch counts.

              Originally posted by Thrash13
              Dr. Jones was right in stating that. We should have believed him.
              Originally posted by slickdtc
              DrJones brings the stinky cheese is what we've all learned from this debacle.
              Originally posted by Kipnis22
              yes your fantasy world when your proven wrong about 95% of your post

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              • N51_rob
                Faceuary!
                • Jul 2003
                • 14805

                #22
                Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                Originally posted by DrJones
                I don't think most people who advocate pitch counts are concerned about vets like Verlander and Halladay. But for under-25 guys who have never pitched anywhere near 200+ innings before? Damn right people should be cautious with pitch counts.

                http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1355247
                Lol, I was coming in to post this story.
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                • CabreraMVP
                  MVP
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 1437

                  #23
                  Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                  Originally posted by 55
                  I tried looking this up and found nothing. I'm not saying I don't believe you but where did you hear this?
                  It was a quote from Reggie Jackson I think? It was from a book, he said "I once saw Nolan Ryan throw 262 pitches one afternoon. It messed him up so much, that he had to retire 23 years later, at 46"

                  And about Porcello or Fister throwing 130 pitches. Obviously if they did that next start, it would be a mistake. Because their arms are conditioned to throw 100. Verlander has gotten to this point by gradually increasing his pitches from start to start, year to year. His arm is conditioned to throw 120. So 130 is not a stretch.

                  But for Fister or Pocello? You'd have to have them go about 110, 115, 120, etc. Build up the arm.

                  One thing Leyland has said about Verlander, is that he can throw more pitches if he isn't throwing more 'stress' pitches. If you are pitching in and out of trouble all game, yea, he's thrown a lot of big pitches and wear down. But when Verlander is breezing though the game, say 100 pitches in the 6th, but his pitch count is high because he's racking up a lot of strikeouts? That's when Leyland started using Verlander longer in games. I agree with that thinking. If they are dominating, very few 3 ball counts, few baserunners, you can throw a little more.

                  And mechanics is the big thing. I should say this instead, IF you have good mechnaics, pitch counts should be nearly a non issue. As we can see with Joel Zumaya, you can throw 60 innings for just 1 season and completely destory your shoulder forever.

                  It all comes down to teaching young kids the proper mechanics I guess.
                  JayElectronicaBluElzhi2PacTheNotoriousB.I.G.ReksSc arfaceFashawnJeruThaDamaja

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                  • JBH3
                    Marvel's Finest
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 13506

                    #24
                    Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                    Originally posted by CabreraMVP
                    It was a quote from Reggie Jackson I think? It was from a book, he said "I once saw Nolan Ryan throw 262 pitches one afternoon. It messed him up so much, that he had to retire 23 years later, at 46"
                    Reggie Jackson?!? Yea...he wasn't ever known to embellish the truth.
                    Originally posted by Edmund Burke
                    All that is needed for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.

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                    • WazzuRC
                      Go Cougs!
                      • Dec 2002
                      • 5617

                      #25
                      I swear that 75% of the reason this thread was created was just to continually tell us how great Verlander is.

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                      • DamnYanks2
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 20794

                        #26
                        Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                        It only really irritates me if the guy is going good, and the manager takes him out to bring is some garbage reliever that seems to have the imminent ability of screwing up the Starter's beautiful pitching performance in a matter of minutes.

                        Pitch counts matter, but they are over valued. Young Pitchers that may be the Prospects of a teams future should be monitored. However I despise anything that resembles the Joba Rules, which were complete garbage, or Bobby Cox's fascination with taking out Maddux or Glavine in favor of a reliever, despite the fact they were coasting along just fine. Rant over/

                        I realize pitching is horrible for your arm, but some guys are workhorses and can go that extra mile without being babied. But, as we all know over managing is as much a part of baseball as hitting is. But, I agree that pitchers are babied, and relievers imo are quite worthless most of the time.

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                        • CabreraMVP
                          MVP
                          • Sep 2010
                          • 1437

                          #27
                          Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                          Originally posted by WazzuRC
                          I swear that 75% of the reason this thread was created was just to continually tell us how great Verlander is.
                          Because mentioning the guy who throws the most pitches per season isn't relevant to a pitch count discussion or anything! Yes, the reason I started this thread is because people cried his arm would fall off after throwing 130 pitches in April. And I feel strong about pitch counts so it made perfect sense to post. We're talking about how he threw 130 pitches. Nobody mentioned the fact it was a complete game, 1 run or whatever. Nobody is talking about his RESULTS. It's all PITCH COUNT!

                          He's the poster boy for anti pitch counts today because he throws more than anybody else. If he wasn't brought up, this thread would make no sense and I wouldn't have any proof that pitchers TODAY can still throw a lot without injury. He's the clearest example of why pitch counts are overrated.

                          Hop of my nuts already dude lol. the only reason I like Verlander is because he happens to be a good pitcher for my team. He's not even the best pitcher in the American League. He's never been a favorite player of mine...I'd rather watch Doug Fister pitch any day.

                          If I wanted to tell you about how good he is, I would bring up his stats. But instead I talk about pitches. He's the best pitcher in the world because he throws a lot of pitches! Duh. That's my agenda. You got me

                          Last edited by CabreraMVP; 04-18-2012, 06:00 PM.
                          JayElectronicaBluElzhi2PacTheNotoriousB.I.G.ReksSc arfaceFashawnJeruThaDamaja

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                          • CabreraMVP
                            MVP
                            • Sep 2010
                            • 1437

                            #28
                            Re: Pitch counts are dumb!

                            Here go, On June 14th, 1974, Nolan Ryan threw 242 pitches in 13 innings agaisnt Boston. He struck out 19 and walked 10 batters.

                            In the same game, Luis Tiant threw 14 1/3 innings and close to 200 pitches.

                            Ryan was 27. He threw 332 innings that year and led the league in strikeouts, and also walks with 202. But it wasn't the most pitches he ever thrown, it was 244.

                            JayElectronicaBluElzhi2PacTheNotoriousB.I.G.ReksSc arfaceFashawnJeruThaDamaja

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                            • WazzuRC
                              Go Cougs!
                              • Dec 2002
                              • 5617

                              #29
                              Originally posted by CabreraMVP
                              Because mentioning the guy who throws the most pitches per season isn't relevant to a pitch count discussion or anything! Yes, the reason I started this thread is because people cried his arm would fall off after throwing 130 pitches in April. And I feel strong about pitch counts so it made perfect sense to post. We're talking about how he threw 130 pitches. Nobody mentioned the fact it was a complete game, 1 run or whatever. Nobody is talking about his RESULTS. It's all PITCH COUNT!

                              He's the poster boy for anti pitch counts today because he throws more than anybody else. If he wasn't brought up, this thread would make no sense and I wouldn't have any proof that pitchers TODAY can still throw a lot without injury. He's the clearest example of why pitch counts are overrated.

                              Hop of my nuts already dude lol. the only reason I like Verlander is because he happens to be a good pitcher for my team. He's not even the best pitcher in the American League. He's never been a favorite player of mine...I'd rather watch Doug Fister pitch any day.

                              If I wanted to tell you about how good he is, I would bring up his stats. But instead I talk about pitches. He's the best pitcher in the world because he throws a lot of pitches! Duh. That's my agenda. You got me

                              I'm not on your nuts nor do I care to be. I think you need relax, go outside, and throw 300 pitches. If two freaks of nature like Verlander and Ryan can do it, surely any pitcher can.

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