We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

[MagicUser]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
cookusu said:
Right and I just wanted to make sure people realized he was HOF quality pitcher even in his last years he had some quality years, partly because of the aura that surrrounded him and what he might throw, mostly he was a showman in his later career, but still an excellent pitcher.

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My question, which is a bit naive, I know, is should Perry be in the HoF after admitting he cheated? Or are some forms of cheating allowed as part of the personality of the game, while otehrs are not? I mean someone compared the spitball to the corked bat, but when Sosa was caught using one in a game (practice bat or not) all you heard was how he had been tarnished, how his records would be questioned, etc. Granted most people moved on from that was the season went on, but still.

If Pedro was caught cutting balls this season- what would the reaction be? Would he be tarnished?
It just seems that if some cheating is allowed and some is not it becomes very difficult to know where the DO NOT CROSS line is because it is always moving...

[cookusu]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

Excellent question, don't have an answer for that. Not sure why Perry was considered a colorful character and Sosa a cheater. Same thing they talk about Craig Nettles getting caught and the story is funny.

Some of it has to do with previous generations wanting to believe that everything and everyone was better in their time, which is just pure BS, cause I have been watching for 33 years.

[cookusu]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

Excellent question, don't have an answer for that. Not sure why Perry was considered a colorful character and Sosa a cheater. Same thing they talk about Craig Nettles getting caught and the story is funny.

Some of it has to do with previous generations wanting to believe that everything and everyone was better in their time, which is just pure BS, cause I have been watching for 33 years.

[cookusu]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

Excellent question, don't have an answer for that. Not sure why Perry was considered a colorful character and Sosa a cheater. Same thing they talk about Craig Nettles getting caught and the story is funny.

Some of it has to do with previous generations wanting to believe that everything and everyone was better in their time, which is just pure BS, cause I have been watching for 33 years.

[BigRed]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
cookusu said:
Excellent question, don't have an answer for that. Not sure why Perry was considered a colorful character and Sosa a cheater. Same thing they talk about Craig Nettles getting caught and the story is funny.

Some of it has to do with previous generations wanting to believe that everything and everyone was better in their time, which is just pure BS, cause I have been watching for 33 years.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the era they were playing in, but I think a lot of it also has to do with time.

Right now, nobody in Chicago (save die-hard Sox fans) do anything but praise Sosa. Just watch a Sosa press conferense sometime. The reporters do nothing but giggle at every little thing he says.

But, seriously, I do believe that in time, all this Sosa/cork stuff will be more looked at as something that was funny than anything else.

[BigRed]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
cookusu said:
Excellent question, don't have an answer for that. Not sure why Perry was considered a colorful character and Sosa a cheater. Same thing they talk about Craig Nettles getting caught and the story is funny.

Some of it has to do with previous generations wanting to believe that everything and everyone was better in their time, which is just pure BS, cause I have been watching for 33 years.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the era they were playing in, but I think a lot of it also has to do with time.

Right now, nobody in Chicago (save die-hard Sox fans) do anything but praise Sosa. Just watch a Sosa press conferense sometime. The reporters do nothing but giggle at every little thing he says.

But, seriously, I do believe that in time, all this Sosa/cork stuff will be more looked at as something that was funny than anything else.

[BigRed]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five years

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
cookusu said:
Excellent question, don't have an answer for that. Not sure why Perry was considered a colorful character and Sosa a cheater. Same thing they talk about Craig Nettles getting caught and the story is funny.

Some of it has to do with previous generations wanting to believe that everything and everyone was better in their time, which is just pure BS, cause I have been watching for 33 years.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the era they were playing in, but I think a lot of it also has to do with time.

Right now, nobody in Chicago (save die-hard Sox fans) do anything but praise Sosa. Just watch a Sosa press conferense sometime. The reporters do nothing but giggle at every little thing he says.

But, seriously, I do believe that in time, all this Sosa/cork stuff will be more looked at as something that was funny than anything else.

[pfunk]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five yea

Wow, good to be back to OS after a long layoff...baseball is back and so am I.

As for Barry and CO., there is no shock here. You can say what you want about the lack of a smoking gun, but I for one do not need more evidence, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

If the players don't like all the suspicion they should allow testing. The players that don't shoot up and are sticking with their "brothers" in the Union fraternity are all fools. Not only are they allowing there competitors an unfair advantage, but they are also inviting suspicion upon themselves.

Lets not fool ourselves though, the owners don't care anymore about this issue than the players do. If they really wanted to eliminate steroids from the game they would have already. Look at it this way, if the owners had come out two seasons ago when it looked like another strike was imminent and made steroid testing their main priority, demanding that the players union accept testing, stringent testing with zero tolerance, they would have won public support. How could the players strike against that, what would the picket signs say? "We're annoyed we want our 'roids?". The players would have been forced into an untenable position from which they would have had to accept testing in order to save face. Instead the owners caved and nothing, including the drug problem, got fixed. Trust me, that is one thing the owners are happy about.

Why wouldn't the owners want drug testing? Well, lets see. In their business based brains the equation is simple. Juice=Homeruns=$$$$$. They have been crossing their fingers, praying this would all go away and people would just be happy to watch steroid bloated gladiators mash more and more moonshots.

It's not going to go away though, it's no longer a suspicion that won't go away. We have some pretty strong evidence that Barry Bonds and some of the games other big sluggers have been juicing. We don't know how much or how long, or who else for that matter. Even the most naive among us can no longer deny that players have been cheating and that until there is regular and random testing, all players accomplishments are suspect.

What is saddest is the thing that I have not yet heard anyone say. I have heard some ludacris defense of Bonds and other players, claiming that taking steroids is like taking anti-depressants like millions of people do every day. Not only is that illogical, steroids are illegal and anti-depressants are doctor prescribed, but it is also offensive to anyone who needs anti-depressants to effectivly participate in society. Steroids do not make players play to their best level, they push them above normal boundaries and force others who would not risk the eventual and inevitable consequences of steroid use to play at a competitive disadvantage. However there is someone who is cheated worse than the players who don't juice, besides on some level they are complicit with their silence. No, the fans are cheated. We are cheated of knowing just how great Barry Bonds really is. The sane argument in defence of him is that his swing is unreal and that steroids do not make a player able to make contact more frequently. This is likely true, they certainly didn't help Caminiti or Canseco in that way and Giambi's average suffered last season. No, Bonds is on a different level than everyone else, he has ascended to another plane of athleticism and his name should be uttered with the likes of Ruth, Mays, and Mantle, not to mention Jordan or Gretzky. Indeed, his ability transcends his own sport, he is so much better than the other players around him that we can't compare him to them anymore.

Does this mean that steroids have not artificially inflated his numbers, that he would have hit 73 without them or that he would be at 658 right now no matter what? Nope, it means that we don't know where he would be. Maybe the 'roids have added 50 homeruns to his total over the years, would we not still be impressed with 608? Would we not be looking forward to seeing him pass his Godfather Willie Mays this year or next and then maybe having a shot at Ruth? Would we not wonder if he could go three, four, or five more years and have a shot at Aaron? We would wonder all these things, and with amazement and without wondering if it was for real or it was the juice. We have been robbed of the opportunity to wonder, to look forward to witnessing history. Maybe the juice has only added 8 HR's, who really knows, maybe he would be just as good without them, we just don't know. That is the crime, we can't enjoy one of the truly great players of all time, because we can't trust our own eyes.

I have tried to like Bonds despite his off putting attitude, I have tried to appreciate his incredible ability to anticipate a pitch and then swat it into McCovey cove with disdain. I want to be amazed by what he can do, to get goosebumps when I see him pass Ruth and perhaps Aaron. I have been robbed of that though, because despite the fact that Bonds was already one of the great players to play the game and could have taken his place in the conversation about who is the greatest player of all time, he had to try to be even better than he was, to artificially increase his already unreal ability. In short, he got greedy and we all pay the price. I for one hope he snaps a tendon in his artificially swollen body and falls short of Mays, Ruth and Aaron. Those guys got there the right way, and they deserve better than to lose their place in history to a cheater. Besides, I don't want to waste time wondering if Bonds really was as good as 756 HR's.

[pfunk]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five yea

Wow, good to be back to OS after a long layoff...baseball is back and so am I.

As for Barry and CO., there is no shock here. You can say what you want about the lack of a smoking gun, but I for one do not need more evidence, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

If the players don't like all the suspicion they should allow testing. The players that don't shoot up and are sticking with their "brothers" in the Union fraternity are all fools. Not only are they allowing there competitors an unfair advantage, but they are also inviting suspicion upon themselves.

Lets not fool ourselves though, the owners don't care anymore about this issue than the players do. If they really wanted to eliminate steroids from the game they would have already. Look at it this way, if the owners had come out two seasons ago when it looked like another strike was imminent and made steroid testing their main priority, demanding that the players union accept testing, stringent testing with zero tolerance, they would have won public support. How could the players strike against that, what would the picket signs say? "We're annoyed we want our 'roids?". The players would have been forced into an untenable position from which they would have had to accept testing in order to save face. Instead the owners caved and nothing, including the drug problem, got fixed. Trust me, that is one thing the owners are happy about.

Why wouldn't the owners want drug testing? Well, lets see. In their business based brains the equation is simple. Juice=Homeruns=$$$$$. They have been crossing their fingers, praying this would all go away and people would just be happy to watch steroid bloated gladiators mash more and more moonshots.

It's not going to go away though, it's no longer a suspicion that won't go away. We have some pretty strong evidence that Barry Bonds and some of the games other big sluggers have been juicing. We don't know how much or how long, or who else for that matter. Even the most naive among us can no longer deny that players have been cheating and that until there is regular and random testing, all players accomplishments are suspect.

What is saddest is the thing that I have not yet heard anyone say. I have heard some ludacris defense of Bonds and other players, claiming that taking steroids is like taking anti-depressants like millions of people do every day. Not only is that illogical, steroids are illegal and anti-depressants are doctor prescribed, but it is also offensive to anyone who needs anti-depressants to effectivly participate in society. Steroids do not make players play to their best level, they push them above normal boundaries and force others who would not risk the eventual and inevitable consequences of steroid use to play at a competitive disadvantage. However there is someone who is cheated worse than the players who don't juice, besides on some level they are complicit with their silence. No, the fans are cheated. We are cheated of knowing just how great Barry Bonds really is. The sane argument in defence of him is that his swing is unreal and that steroids do not make a player able to make contact more frequently. This is likely true, they certainly didn't help Caminiti or Canseco in that way and Giambi's average suffered last season. No, Bonds is on a different level than everyone else, he has ascended to another plane of athleticism and his name should be uttered with the likes of Ruth, Mays, and Mantle, not to mention Jordan or Gretzky. Indeed, his ability transcends his own sport, he is so much better than the other players around him that we can't compare him to them anymore.

Does this mean that steroids have not artificially inflated his numbers, that he would have hit 73 without them or that he would be at 658 right now no matter what? Nope, it means that we don't know where he would be. Maybe the 'roids have added 50 homeruns to his total over the years, would we not still be impressed with 608? Would we not be looking forward to seeing him pass his Godfather Willie Mays this year or next and then maybe having a shot at Ruth? Would we not wonder if he could go three, four, or five more years and have a shot at Aaron? We would wonder all these things, and with amazement and without wondering if it was for real or it was the juice. We have been robbed of the opportunity to wonder, to look forward to witnessing history. Maybe the juice has only added 8 HR's, who really knows, maybe he would be just as good without them, we just don't know. That is the crime, we can't enjoy one of the truly great players of all time, because we can't trust our own eyes.

I have tried to like Bonds despite his off putting attitude, I have tried to appreciate his incredible ability to anticipate a pitch and then swat it into McCovey cove with disdain. I want to be amazed by what he can do, to get goosebumps when I see him pass Ruth and perhaps Aaron. I have been robbed of that though, because despite the fact that Bonds was already one of the great players to play the game and could have taken his place in the conversation about who is the greatest player of all time, he had to try to be even better than he was, to artificially increase his already unreal ability. In short, he got greedy and we all pay the price. I for one hope he snaps a tendon in his artificially swollen body and falls short of Mays, Ruth and Aaron. Those guys got there the right way, and they deserve better than to lose their place in history to a cheater. Besides, I don't want to waste time wondering if Bonds really was as good as 756 HR's.

[pfunk]

Re: We should kill baseball altogether, then bring it back in five yea

Wow, good to be back to OS after a long layoff...baseball is back and so am I.

As for Barry and CO., there is no shock here. You can say what you want about the lack of a smoking gun, but I for one do not need more evidence, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck.

If the players don't like all the suspicion they should allow testing. The players that don't shoot up and are sticking with their "brothers" in the Union fraternity are all fools. Not only are they allowing there competitors an unfair advantage, but they are also inviting suspicion upon themselves.

Lets not fool ourselves though, the owners don't care anymore about this issue than the players do. If they really wanted to eliminate steroids from the game they would have already. Look at it this way, if the owners had come out two seasons ago when it looked like another strike was imminent and made steroid testing their main priority, demanding that the players union accept testing, stringent testing with zero tolerance, they would have won public support. How could the players strike against that, what would the picket signs say? "We're annoyed we want our 'roids?". The players would have been forced into an untenable position from which they would have had to accept testing in order to save face. Instead the owners caved and nothing, including the drug problem, got fixed. Trust me, that is one thing the owners are happy about.

Why wouldn't the owners want drug testing? Well, lets see. In their business based brains the equation is simple. Juice=Homeruns=$$$$$. They have been crossing their fingers, praying this would all go away and people would just be happy to watch steroid bloated gladiators mash more and more moonshots.

It's not going to go away though, it's no longer a suspicion that won't go away. We have some pretty strong evidence that Barry Bonds and some of the games other big sluggers have been juicing. We don't know how much or how long, or who else for that matter. Even the most naive among us can no longer deny that players have been cheating and that until there is regular and random testing, all players accomplishments are suspect.

What is saddest is the thing that I have not yet heard anyone say. I have heard some ludacris defense of Bonds and other players, claiming that taking steroids is like taking anti-depressants like millions of people do every day. Not only is that illogical, steroids are illegal and anti-depressants are doctor prescribed, but it is also offensive to anyone who needs anti-depressants to effectivly participate in society. Steroids do not make players play to their best level, they push them above normal boundaries and force others who would not risk the eventual and inevitable consequences of steroid use to play at a competitive disadvantage. However there is someone who is cheated worse than the players who don't juice, besides on some level they are complicit with their silence. No, the fans are cheated. We are cheated of knowing just how great Barry Bonds really is. The sane argument in defence of him is that his swing is unreal and that steroids do not make a player able to make contact more frequently. This is likely true, they certainly didn't help Caminiti or Canseco in that way and Giambi's average suffered last season. No, Bonds is on a different level than everyone else, he has ascended to another plane of athleticism and his name should be uttered with the likes of Ruth, Mays, and Mantle, not to mention Jordan or Gretzky. Indeed, his ability transcends his own sport, he is so much better than the other players around him that we can't compare him to them anymore.

Does this mean that steroids have not artificially inflated his numbers, that he would have hit 73 without them or that he would be at 658 right now no matter what? Nope, it means that we don't know where he would be. Maybe the 'roids have added 50 homeruns to his total over the years, would we not still be impressed with 608? Would we not be looking forward to seeing him pass his Godfather Willie Mays this year or next and then maybe having a shot at Ruth? Would we not wonder if he could go three, four, or five more years and have a shot at Aaron? We would wonder all these things, and with amazement and without wondering if it was for real or it was the juice. We have been robbed of the opportunity to wonder, to look forward to witnessing history. Maybe the juice has only added 8 HR's, who really knows, maybe he would be just as good without them, we just don't know. That is the crime, we can't enjoy one of the truly great players of all time, because we can't trust our own eyes.

I have tried to like Bonds despite his off putting attitude, I have tried to appreciate his incredible ability to anticipate a pitch and then swat it into McCovey cove with disdain. I want to be amazed by what he can do, to get goosebumps when I see him pass Ruth and perhaps Aaron. I have been robbed of that though, because despite the fact that Bonds was already one of the great players to play the game and could have taken his place in the conversation about who is the greatest player of all time, he had to try to be even better than he was, to artificially increase his already unreal ability. In short, he got greedy and we all pay the price. I for one hope he snaps a tendon in his artificially swollen body and falls short of Mays, Ruth and Aaron. Those guys got there the right way, and they deserve better than to lose their place in history to a cheater. Besides, I don't want to waste time wondering if Bonds really was as good as 756 HR's.