Are Analytics killing Baseball

[MBMavs20]

There has been a big movement towards Analytics the past 10 years in baseball and I don't know if I like it that much. I think Managers are trying to out-think themselves and their opponents and it's hurting the game.

Consider the following examples:

I HATE the fact that Aaron Judge hits 2nd in the lineup. He is not a 2 hitter. He is a power hitter and he should be hitting 3rd or 4th. This will give him more chances to drive in runs. A 2 hitter is Derek Jeter, or Willie Randolph. It's meant for a contact hitter. Giancarlo Stanton is NOT a 2 hitter, neither is Kris Bryant.

Kris Bryant hit 2nd during his rookie year of 2016 when he had 102 RBI's and he had more RBI's hitting 3rd than 2nd. He dropped down to 73 RBI's in 2017.

Giancarlo Stanton hit .233 with 11 HR's hitting second. When he hit cleanup, he hit .321 with 21 HR's...

Would you hit Babe Ruth 2nd? Or Mickey Mantle? Or Barry Bonds? You would have been called the worst manager ever if you did.

Sure, the game is changing, but why re-invent the wheel? Having power hitters hit 3rd, 4th, or 5th in the lineup has worked for the past 100 years so why change it?

Dave Roberts, Manager of the Dodgers. Or should I say over-manager of the Dodgers. His moves in the World Series have left me totally scratching my head.

First, Cody Bellinger played in 162 games this year. Max Muncy came out of nowhere and hit 35 HR's. So you reward them by benching them in games 1 and 2 because a lefty is pitching? What the hell is that? I always thought you went with the players that got you to the World Series, not bench them.

Second, can we please let starters pitch out of jams and stop abusing the bullpens? Just ask Hyun-Jin Ryu. In game 2, you yanked him early and brought in Ryan Madsen. Ryan Madsen? Really? A 37 years old reliever who sucked this year. Who pitched 9 games for the Dodgers this year and had a 6.48 ERA. If you tried to pull Roger Clemens, or Nolan Ryan, or Jack Morris out of a game early they would have told you to go **** Yourself....

As for the infield shift? Hit the ball the other way. Problem solved. Wade Boggs would have hit .400 in the era of the shift.

Rant over.

[SPTO]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

I agree with most of your rant there. I'm not a big fan of the whole bullpenning concept as well. Something I hope (but probably futilely so) the Blue Jays don't start doing with Montoyo coming from the Rays.

I can understand the concept of the power hitter batting 2nd IF he's also well rounded enough to make contact and not be swinging for the fences all the time. I agree that Judge or Stanton should be either in 3-4-5 holes rather than at 2.

Regarding Bellinger, he's not very good against against LHP but Puig is a reverse split guy and he has WORSE numbers against lefties. I'd rather put Bellinger in there than him.


Oh and don't get me started on the shift...That concept has been abused to no end but who can blame managers for doing that when batters won't even make the effort to go the other way. Instead, they've opted for the easier "solution" of trying to hit OVER the shift which makes the game pretty damn boring IMO.

[Rocket32]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

There has been a big movement towards Analytics the past 10 years in baseball and I don't know if I like it that much. I think Managers are trying to out-think themselves and their opponents and it's hurting the game.

Consider the following examples:

I HATE the fact that Aaron Judge hits 2nd in the lineup. He is not a 2 hitter. He is a power hitter and he should be hitting 3rd or 4th. This will give him more chances to drive in runs. A 2 hitter is Derek Jeter, or Willie Randolph. It's meant for a contact hitter. Giancarlo Stanton is NOT a 2 hitter, neither is Kris Bryant.

Kris Bryant hit 2nd during his rookie year of 2016 when he had 102 RBI's and he had more RBI's hitting 3rd than 2nd. He dropped down to 73 RBI's in 2017.

Giancarlo Stanton hit .233 with 11 HR's hitting second. When he hit cleanup, he hit .321 with 21 HR's...

Would you hit Babe Ruth 2nd? Or Mickey Mantle? Or Barry Bonds? You would have been called the worst manager ever if you did.

Sure, the game is changing, but why re-invent the wheel? Having power hitters hit 3rd, 4th, or 5th in the lineup has worked for the past 100 years so why change it?

Dave Roberts, Manager of the Dodgers. Or should I say over-manager of the Dodgers. His moves in the World Series have left me totally scratching my head.

First, Cody Bellinger played in 162 games this year. Max Muncy came out of nowhere and hit 35 HR's. So you reward them by benching them in games 1 and 2 because a lefty is pitching? What the hell is that? I always thought you went with the players that got you to the World Series, not bench them.

Second, can we please let starters pitch out of jams and stop abusing the bullpens? Just ask Hyun-Jin Ryu. In game 2, you yanked him early and brought in Ryan Madsen. Ryan Madsen? Really? A 37 years old reliever who sucked this year. Who pitched 9 games for the Dodgers this year and had a 6.48 ERA. If you tried to pull Roger Clemens, or Nolan Ryan, or Jack Morris out of a game early they would have told you to go **** Yourself....

As for the infield shift? Hit the ball the other way. Problem solved. Wade Boggs would have hit .400 in the era of the shift.

Rant over.

I agree with all your points. The over managing really needs to stop. I’m more of a fan of the traditional lineup building strategy or structure, whatever you want to call it, as well. Guys like Judge and Stanton definitely shouldn’t be batting 2nd, if a power bat is going to bat their he needs to be able to hit for contact as well, not HR or strikeout. I’ve never really understood why hitters don’t just try to go the other way with it against the shift. Unless the guy has little to no speed at all why not even try to bunt it that way? I get it’s easier said then done as pitchers will likely be trying to pitch into the defense they are in but I bet it would catch opposing teams off guard at first.

[Jr.]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

Guys don't just go the other way because it's not their natural swing path. They hit the ball in the air the other way but with the launch angle swing, it's not designed to hit the ball in the ground the other way.

And again, I'm sure opposing teams would be extremely happy for judge, Stanton, etc to hit .400 without power

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[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

No, analytics isn't killing baseball.

Furthermore, I don't think baseball can be killed.

[CaseIH]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

I dont think analytics itself, is hurting the game, its poor managing and/or the front office telling managers how to manage that is hurting the game to a degree.


Like for instance last night, after playing 18 innings the night before, and bullpens being gassed, IMO, last night with how well Rich Hill, was pitching, I dont think if I was the manager I would have pulled him when Roberts did.



Now thats not to say, that the Red Sox wouldnt have been able to come back. But pulling him after giving up the walk, I probably would have gave him atleast a chance to continue on, before pulling him. He may have ended up giving it up anyway, but I think I would have went a little longer with him.



Were seeing in both baseball and basketball these days, that teams are babying these players too much, and being too concerned about injuries. In a day where pitchers are throwing a lot less pitches per game, and yet, we have more arm and shoulder injuries than ever before. Granted you got more guys throwing harder on average than in yrs past, so its possible that is causing more injuries as well.



But with all this talk, about how much bigger and supposedly stronger athletes are now days, and yet they get hurt much more often. Heck the NBA is a lot less physical now days, and players are supposedly in much better condition, yet they get injured more often, all while playing less minutes than guys that played in 60's 70's and 80's. Just look at the minutes per game Bird, Magic, Wilt, Jabbar, Big O, ets average over their entire careers, and the minutes they were playing per game each season. Bird even did it, the last few yrs of his career with a severe back injury, where he was in traction, when he wasnt on the court,lol.



I get these guys are paid alot of money now days, and you wont to try and protect your investment, but my gosh, were sissifying this generation of athletes, by owners and management, trying to outsmart each other.





Im not really a fan of David Price, but I'll give him all the credit in the world, from always wanting to the ball, regardless of short rest, along with all the struggles he has had in his postseason career.

Kershaw is another guy, who isnt afraid to take the ball, on short rest, in any situation either. Yes he has had some stinkers in his postseason career, but he never backs down from the challenge. And Kershaw the last fews has battled back issues as well, and still will take the ball in any situation, even if it means he fails, and knows due to the failures, you have idiot analyst and talk show hosts that will question his legacy.




Im not against analytics, I think the more stats the better, but sometimes you just got to let the players play, and quite trying to out think the opposing manager or coach.



Players will never be able to be great if they never are given the chance to fail. Nor will you ever be great without having failure. This generation of SP's, are being coddled too much. And basically all the NBA players are being coddled too much.

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

The only thing killing baseball is people looking for something to blame for killing baseball.

[kehlis]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

Boggs would have never had a shift placed on him because his splits wouldn't dictate the need for one.

[DrJones]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

I think a lot of people conflate aesthetics and effectiveness.

I fully agree that three-true-outcomes baseball, ever-present defensive shifts, and a steady stream of 100mph-throwing relievers is tough to watch. Baseball is a lot more fun with action on the bases and in the field. However, much like the NHL's Dead Puck Era and the NBA's current 3's or dunks era, coaches/managers do it because they're winning strategies more often than not.

Teams are always going to look for an edge, and that often means winning ugly. I don't blame the managers or front office types involved. Indeed, some of Counsell's and Roberts' biggest mistakes this postseason were going with their "gut" and sticking with "proven" relievers, which is very old-school thinking. I'm pretty sure none of the "baseball nerds" thought it was a good idea to trot Madson out there last night.

It's up to MLB to make changes, and whatever they come up with will have plenty of detractors and probably be difficult to enforce (ban shifts? allow a limited number of shifts per game? limit the number of relievers available per game? deaden the ball to reduce HR?). I agree there's a problem; I worry that the solution will be worse.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

Boggs would have never had a shift placed on him because his splits wouldn't dictate the need for one.

Yeah, he would've been a difficult shift. If I were the opposing manager, I probably would've pit Captain Hadley against him to shut him down.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

If there's anything "killing" baseball, it's the number of strikeouts in the game now, due to the increasing velocity in the game (almost every team in baseball has one or two guys who throw 100) rather than the growth of analytics departments in MLB franchises.

Maybe constant pitching changes aren't fun to watch, but neither is watching a starting pitcher at the end of his tether. Have always been baffled by complaints about the shift, too. Is there any professional sport that forces their defenders to play in sub-optimal positions?

[MBMavs20]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

Boggs would have never had a shift placed on him because his splits wouldn't dictate the need for one.

That's kind of my point. Boggs used the entire field when hitting so you couldn't put a shift on him.

All this talk about launch angles is getting ridiculous. Not every guy in your lineup should be a home run threat. Baseball needs more contact hitters who can put the ball in play and manufacture runs instead of waiting for the long ball.

Look at the Yankees. All that power and they couldn't score in the playoffs.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

If there's anything "killing" baseball, it's the number of strikeouts in the game now, due to the increasing velocity in the game (almost every team in baseball has one or two guys who throw 100) rather than the growth of analytics departments in MLB franchises.

Maybe constant pitching changes aren't fun to watch, but neither is watching a starting pitcher at the end of his tether. Have always been baffled by complaints about the shift, too. Is there any professional sport that forces their defenders to play in sub-optimal positions?

Yes, in a way:

- The NBA has illegal defense, both at the team level and the individual level.

- The NFL doesn't allow defenders line up offside.

Both of these rules are ones we just accept since they've been around so long, but they are there because obviously offense would be suppressed if you didn't have them.

I have thought that maybe instead of outlawing shifts, you require the defenders to be in a spot/zone until the pitcher begins his wind up. They can adjust/move in the few seconds it takes him to deliver the pitch.

[MBMavs20]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

I think a lot of people conflate aesthetics and effectiveness.

I fully agree that three-true-outcomes baseball, ever-present defensive shifts, and a steady stream of 100mph-throwing relievers is tough to watch. Baseball is a lot more fun with action on the bases and in the field. However, much like the NHL's Dead Puck Era and the NBA's current 3's or dunks era, coaches/managers do it because they're winning strategies more often than not.

Teams are always going to look for an edge, and that often means winning ugly. I don't blame the managers or front office types involved. Indeed, some of Counsell's and Roberts' biggest mistakes this postseason were going with their "gut" and sticking with "proven" relievers, which is very old-school thinking. I'm pretty sure none of the "baseball nerds" thought it was a good idea to trot Madson out there last night.

It's up to MLB to make changes, and whatever they come up with will have plenty of detractors and probably be difficult to enforce (ban shifts? allow a limited number of shifts per game? limit the number of relievers available per game? deaden the ball to reduce HR?). I agree there's a problem; I worry that the solution will be worse.

If teams want an edge in today's game, hit for higher average and stop striking out so much.

The Astros in 2017 struck out the least amount of time and led the American League in batting average.

The 2018 Red Sox had the 4th fewest strikeouts in the American League and led the Majors in Batting average.

What's old is new. Pitchers may throw 100MPH routinely, but I would make sure they are in the bullpen and limit their pitch counts to save their elbows.

[MBMavs20]

Re: Is Analytics killing Baseball

Yes, in a way:

- The NBA has illegal defense, both at the team level and the individual level.

- The NFL doesn't allow defenders line up offside.

Both of these rules are ones we just accept since they've been around so long, but they are there because obviously offense would be suppressed if you didn't have them.

I have thought that maybe instead of outlawing shifts, you require the defenders to be in a spot/zone until the pitcher begins his wind up. They can adjust/move in the few seconds it takes him to deliver the pitch.

The best way to get rid of shifts in Baseball is for playing to take advantage of them. Wee Willie Keeler once said a long time ago, "Hit'em where they ain't."