2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

[Speedy]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

Freeman's price keeps going up.

Get paid, my dude.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

MLB Network Radio mentioned the sticking point is going up to 6 years.

So 6 more years in one place is OK but 5 more years when those 5 years are before that 6th year all the way in 2027 is completely untenable and worth leaving and everything. Hey man I'm totally cool staying 6 years but definitely not 5.

And giving 5 years is OK but oh no that 6th year all the way in 2027 is just a bridge too far. Hey man we're totally cool with 5 but not 6.

Incomprehensible, wildly logically inconsistent garbage. Morons. **** outta here. Losers.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

At this point I feel like he has no good offers and is just trying to build a market to get some leverage.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

At this point I feel like he has no good offers and is just trying to build a market to get some leverage.

And if so I'm happy.

Happy that the Braves said hey that's it we're not waiting around for you and decided to press on with trading for Olson, signing *him* long term, and then now getting McHugh.

[canes21]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

AA knew Olson would sign a long term contract before the trade ever happened. That probably influenced the Braves decision a little bit, making it easier to stay firm on not committing too longterm to their aging star.

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[Speedy]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

I'm not getting the shade Matrix. The team is paying for future performance, not past. I think Olson makes sense versus Freddie now? Perhaps they feel Freddie has a LOT of miles on his legs and wrists and could break.down soon too.

[Majingir]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

If the Blue Jays miss on Freddie. What about a trade to bring Votto to the homeland? Does anyone else see that as a logical pivot?

Votto would be interesting, but what would the deal be?

Reds are rebuilding, so would it be a 3 team deal?

Jays get Votto
Other team gets Grichuk?
Reds gets prospect from other team + prospect from Jays (under the condition that the Reds pay a certain amount of Vottos deal)?

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

I'm not getting the shade Matrix. The team is paying for future performance, not past. I think Olson makes sense versus Freddie now? Perhaps they feel Freddie has a LOT of miles on his legs and wrists and could break.down soon too.

That's all good. Still feel the way I do about it. It doesn't make sense to want to be somewhere for 6 years but not 5.

And whoever is responsible for such idiocy can choke on it.

Agreed re: knowing Olson would sign long term.

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

Even keeping in mind that the guy has been able to stay on the field consistently (and productive), I'm not sure how much I'm giving up for a 38 year old. This is more of a: "hey Reds, I hear you are having a firesale, how about we take Joey's salary off your spreadsheet for our 10th best prospect".

Not sure why would the Jays do it other than "bringing him home". Jays are trying to contend, don't know why would they go for a symbolic gesture.

[jasontoddwhitt]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

"This wasn't just a payroll move. This was a move that we looked at from a future standpoint and we also looked at it as a move to bring back some talent right now. It also allows us to free up some money to work in the free-agent market and be more proactive in the free-agent and trade markets. I'm excited about that as well. We have to work through those markets to see where it takes us." - Reds GM Nick Krall

Yeah, as a suffering, lifelong Reds fan who was five when the Reds last won a World Series (that all I can remember of is my older brother running around the house screaming "SWEEP!" and thinking he had gone crazy) and having lived through...

* Marge Schott's craziness (Nazism and hurling the n-word around in the daily vocabulary was fine, but the manager living with his girlfriend was a bridge too far. Seriously, look up Davey Johnson.)
* Carl Lindner's frugalism
* The 2000s with such baseball luminaries as Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Narron managing the club.
* Bob Castellini's "we're going to bring winning baseball back to Cincinnati" decree.
* Walt Jocketty hemorrhaging the farm system to not even win a playoff series because Dusty Baker's poor game management gets magnified in the playoffs.
* Pushing a rebuild back a year because "it would look bad since we're hosting the ASG." We won 64 games that season with an aging roster that now had little to no trade value.
* Stopping a rebuild three years into it in a hastily decided "spend now to win" scheme that went all kinds of wrong thanks to underperformance from most of the trade targets and free-agent signings, the pandemic, and injuries to key players.

Don't be shocked Mr. Krall if I'm not exactly flushed with optimism at the current state of affairs.

[Majingir]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

Chapman is probably the next target if Jays don't get Freeman. Ramirez fits their team better than any other FA or trade target, but price just seems like it'll be way too high.

A fair trade I could see might be Pearson + Groshans for Chapman.

Ketel Marte is another good option depending on the trade cost. Can play SS,2B AND CF while being a switch hitter?

Theres some good options out there for sure. Not getting Freeman isn't the worst thing in the world if backup options are Chapman or Marte.

Even keeping in mind that the guy has been able to stay on the field consistently (and productive), I'm not sure how much I'm giving up for a 38 year old. This is more of a: "hey Reds, I hear you are having a firesale, how about we take Joey's salary off your spreadsheet for our 10th best prospect".

Not sure why would the Jays do it other than "bringing him home". Jays are trying to contend, don't know why would they go for a symbolic gesture.

If they can get him real cheap AND not have to pay him much, then why not? Reds if they want to deal him might only be able to deal him to the Jays, so if they want to deal him, they have their hands tied.

So Jays could get a power hitting left handed 1B for a lower salary than a FA who might post similar numbers.

Of course, if it costs too much or Reds don't retain, it won't be worth it.

[KingOfLanglade]

2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

That's all good. Still feel the way I do about it. It doesn't make sense to want to be somewhere for 6 years but not 5.

And whoever is responsible for such idiocy can choke on it.

Agreed re: knowing Olson would sign long term.

I think Miguel Cabrera is the poster boy for how quickly aging players can fall off the cliff production wise, along with increased risk of major (season ending) injury. Not sure any of us envisioned a world where Miggy posted sub 100 OPS+ years (19’ and 21’).

Here’s the crazy thing, Miggy was 33 when this deal started in 2016 (Posted a vintage .956 OPS). In the subsequent 5 years he’s posted a .736 OPS, suffered one early season ending injury, and never played more than 130 games in a single season.

I respect the raw emotion AA showed in his interview. He gets the human element, who Freddie is, and what he means to the city. I equally respect his ability to make the decision he felt put the club in the best situation to win and repeat.

Also, #5 immediately becomes the 11th number retired for the Braves.

[KingOfLanglade]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

Votto would be interesting, but what would the deal be?

Reds are rebuilding, so would it be a 3 team deal?

Jays get Votto
Other team gets Grichuk?
Reds gets prospect from other team + prospect from Jays (under the condition that the Reds pay a certain amount of Vottos deal)?

What is the payroll number the Blue Jays aren’t going to cross? Can they get to $175 million? Or do they need to shed salary to take on Votto?

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

The thing about Cabrera's contract is that it was so unnecessary. Basically a gift to him with at least 2 years left in his (at that time) current contract from a dying man.

[Majingir]

Re: 2021-2022 Hot Stove Thread

What is the payroll number the Blue Jays aren’t going to cross? Can they get to $175 million? Or do they need to shed salary to take on Votto?

I dont know the exact number, but they do seem to want to front load deals to make room for when their young guys are getting paid.

So let's say they got Votto. That's 50m the next 2, and then either 20m or a 7m buyout.

If the Reds paid half, I think the Jays would be fine paying 20m this year, 5m the next, and Reds cover that final year buyout.

Grichuk costs 10m, but would be a 4th OF. So if Jays can get a 3rd team in, that spares 10m, so Votto would end up being only 10m extra on their payroll this year and saves money next year.