Best CF ever ?

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  • mjb2124
    Hall Of Fame
    • Aug 2002
    • 13649

    #76
    Re: Best CF ever ?

    Originally posted by dce1228
    I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but saying there isn't anything concrete as far as statistical records is an ethnocentric statement. The Negro League way of keeping statistics, while different from the MLB way, is hardly inferior simply because it's different. And besides, to hold this against players who WERE NOT ALLOWED to play in the MLB is not only ludicrous but cruel.

    You can make the argument that Cobb and Mays were as good as Charleston, but Josh Gibson was hands down the greatest catcher, if not the greatest right-handed hitter, EVER. There were plenty of witnesses who saw him play, both white and black, and when you're compared to Babe Ruth there's little left to be discerned. Would you compare Bench or Berra to Ruth?

    In life we learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying this to unearth guilt or start a flame war, but when your system of keeping statistics is exclusive and therefore flawed, how can you consider it concrete. I take the words of the people who were actually there to heart, and Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher ever.
    I understand what you're saying and do believe Josh Gibson was one of the greatest players ever.

    However, from a purely numbers standpoint, I've never been able to find anything that shows what his career BA was, career HR total was etc... That's what I want to see when discussing him. The reason there aren't any is that there was never a written record kept during his Negro League Career. Most things have been passed down from word of mouth which we all know gets embelished or changed over time. Stories usually gloss over the facts and when discussing someone who played in the 1930's, those stories become very grainy as the years pass. EX - Babe Ruth's called HR shot. Did he call it? Heck no. He was yelling into the other dugout and pointing at them. However, that story changed over the years and people thought he really did call his shot.

    I live in Pittsburgh where Gibson played and played on the same field that he did. I've seen 1000's of pictures of him and have studied a lot about him. I've spoken to many people around here about him (including my Grandfather who WATCHED him play - as well as Satchel Paige and a few others). There's no doubt in his mind that Gibson was great, but he also knows that many of the Gibson stories have been embelished over time - same goes for many players from that era.

    This is the big problem when comparing Negro League players - little to no stats. Many people want to see numbers (myself included). Doesn't mean those guys weren't very good (because they were), but I'd be interested to see more from a stat standpoint since numbers IMO tell a deeper story.

    Comment

    • mjb2124
      Hall Of Fame
      • Aug 2002
      • 13649

      #77
      Re: Best CF ever ?

      Originally posted by dce1228
      I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but saying there isn't anything concrete as far as statistical records is an ethnocentric statement. The Negro League way of keeping statistics, while different from the MLB way, is hardly inferior simply because it's different. And besides, to hold this against players who WERE NOT ALLOWED to play in the MLB is not only ludicrous but cruel.

      You can make the argument that Cobb and Mays were as good as Charleston, but Josh Gibson was hands down the greatest catcher, if not the greatest right-handed hitter, EVER. There were plenty of witnesses who saw him play, both white and black, and when you're compared to Babe Ruth there's little left to be discerned. Would you compare Bench or Berra to Ruth?

      In life we learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying this to unearth guilt or start a flame war, but when your system of keeping statistics is exclusive and therefore flawed, how can you consider it concrete. I take the words of the people who were actually there to heart, and Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher ever.
      I understand what you're saying and do believe Josh Gibson was one of the greatest players ever.

      However, from a purely numbers standpoint, I've never been able to find anything that shows what his career BA was, career HR total was etc... That's what I want to see when discussing him. The reason there aren't any is that there was never a written record kept during his Negro League Career. Most things have been passed down from word of mouth which we all know gets embelished or changed over time. Stories usually gloss over the facts and when discussing someone who played in the 1930's, those stories become very grainy as the years pass. EX - Babe Ruth's called HR shot. Did he call it? Heck no. He was yelling into the other dugout and pointing at them. However, that story changed over the years and people thought he really did call his shot.

      I live in Pittsburgh where Gibson played and played on the same field that he did. I've seen 1000's of pictures of him and have studied a lot about him. I've spoken to many people around here about him (including my Grandfather who WATCHED him play - as well as Satchel Paige and a few others). There's no doubt in his mind that Gibson was great, but he also knows that many of the Gibson stories have been embelished over time - same goes for many players from that era.

      This is the big problem when comparing Negro League players - little to no stats. Many people want to see numbers (myself included). Doesn't mean those guys weren't very good (because they were), but I'd be interested to see more from a stat standpoint since numbers IMO tell a deeper story.

      Comment

      • Nivek
        H*ll *f F*m*
        • Jul 2002
        • 7999

        #78
        Re: Best CF ever ?

        Originally posted by joeboo
        This is the big problem when comparing Negro League players - little to no stats. Many people want to see numbers (myself included). Doesn't mean those guys weren't very good (because they were), but I'd be interested to see more from a stat standpoint since numbers IMO tell a deeper story.
        I agree to an extent, but numbers (just like word of mouth) can be decieving. You can't ONLY judge greatness by numbers, I like to use the example of Derek Jeter. His numbers aren't HOF-like, but he is a shoe in for the HOF. Hell, a case can be made that the Negro leagues were infact more competitive in terms of skill level then the majors. Didn't Satchel Paige play effectivly in the major in his mid-40's? It sucks that racisim is the biggest issue when it comes to the all-time greatness in baseball.
        Cameras or guns, one of them is gonna shoot me to death.

        Comment

        • Nivek
          H*ll *f F*m*
          • Jul 2002
          • 7999

          #79
          Re: Best CF ever ?

          Originally posted by joeboo
          This is the big problem when comparing Negro League players - little to no stats. Many people want to see numbers (myself included). Doesn't mean those guys weren't very good (because they were), but I'd be interested to see more from a stat standpoint since numbers IMO tell a deeper story.
          I agree to an extent, but numbers (just like word of mouth) can be decieving. You can't ONLY judge greatness by numbers, I like to use the example of Derek Jeter. His numbers aren't HOF-like, but he is a shoe in for the HOF. Hell, a case can be made that the Negro leagues were infact more competitive in terms of skill level then the majors. Didn't Satchel Paige play effectivly in the major in his mid-40's? It sucks that racisim is the biggest issue when it comes to the all-time greatness in baseball.
          Cameras or guns, one of them is gonna shoot me to death.

          Comment

          • Mr. Bee
            Pro
            • Feb 2005
            • 498

            #80
            Re: Best CF ever ?

            Originally posted by Nivek
            Didn't Satchel Paige play effectivly in the major in his mid-40's? It sucks that racisim is the biggest issue when it comes to the all-time greatness in baseball.
            Maybe he played effectively into his 50's because his arm didnt suffer as much wear and tear in the negro leagues from facing the watered down hitting /devils advocate
            I creating Ryan Langarhans and put him in the braves roster, but not only my entire braves roster changed but other teams roster changed too. Why is that. Now if the braves or other teams trade or sign players, there will be no point for chsnging it. If u don't have online like me, u be sad too.

            Comment

            • Mr. Bee
              Pro
              • Feb 2005
              • 498

              #81
              Re: Best CF ever ?

              Originally posted by Nivek
              Didn't Satchel Paige play effectivly in the major in his mid-40's? It sucks that racisim is the biggest issue when it comes to the all-time greatness in baseball.
              Maybe he played effectively into his 50's because his arm didnt suffer as much wear and tear in the negro leagues from facing the watered down hitting /devils advocate
              I creating Ryan Langarhans and put him in the braves roster, but not only my entire braves roster changed but other teams roster changed too. Why is that. Now if the braves or other teams trade or sign players, there will be no point for chsnging it. If u don't have online like me, u be sad too.

              Comment

              • Nivek
                H*ll *f F*m*
                • Jul 2002
                • 7999

                #82
                Re: Best CF ever ?

                Originally posted by Mr. Bee
                Maybe he played effectively into his 50's because his arm didnt suffer as much wear and tear in the negro leagues from facing the watered down hitting /devils advocate
                Exactly...you're proving my point. We all don't know and can't base greatness on assumptions and statistics. You can't really proclaim greatness by stats for one player and dismiss one b/c of lack there off.
                Cameras or guns, one of them is gonna shoot me to death.

                Comment

                • Nivek
                  H*ll *f F*m*
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 7999

                  #83
                  Re: Best CF ever ?

                  Originally posted by Mr. Bee
                  Maybe he played effectively into his 50's because his arm didnt suffer as much wear and tear in the negro leagues from facing the watered down hitting /devils advocate
                  Exactly...you're proving my point. We all don't know and can't base greatness on assumptions and statistics. You can't really proclaim greatness by stats for one player and dismiss one b/c of lack there off.
                  Cameras or guns, one of them is gonna shoot me to death.

                  Comment

                  • glucklich
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 4272

                    #84
                    Re: Best CF ever ?

                    Originally posted by priceless
                    Interesting, I just read today in the book The Thinking Fan's Guide to Baseball about how great of a CF Willie Mays was, in that he was one of the best (if not the best) at positioning himself, and oftentimes he would actually get a jump on the ball before it was even pitched!

                    So in other words I would say, hey, Willie Mays!
                    Are you sure it said he got a jump before it was even pitched? I can see him getting a jump before the ball is hit. You can often tell by pitch location and the body movement of the batter. Through repetition you can become extremely adept at this. But taking off before the pitch is another level. Youd really have to know tendencies and even then its king of a guess. I guess if you could cover ground like Willie you trust yourself 1) to get it right the first time and 2) recover and still make a play. This guy did all this in addition to being faster than any of the other guys mentioned save a young Mickey Mantle. The closest thing weve had in our generation is KGJ.

                    Comment

                    • glucklich
                      Banned
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 4272

                      #85
                      Re: Best CF ever ?

                      Originally posted by priceless
                      Interesting, I just read today in the book The Thinking Fan's Guide to Baseball about how great of a CF Willie Mays was, in that he was one of the best (if not the best) at positioning himself, and oftentimes he would actually get a jump on the ball before it was even pitched!

                      So in other words I would say, hey, Willie Mays!
                      Are you sure it said he got a jump before it was even pitched? I can see him getting a jump before the ball is hit. You can often tell by pitch location and the body movement of the batter. Through repetition you can become extremely adept at this. But taking off before the pitch is another level. Youd really have to know tendencies and even then its king of a guess. I guess if you could cover ground like Willie you trust yourself 1) to get it right the first time and 2) recover and still make a play. This guy did all this in addition to being faster than any of the other guys mentioned save a young Mickey Mantle. The closest thing weve had in our generation is KGJ.

                      Comment

                      • Heelfan71
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 19940

                        #86
                        Re: Best CF ever ?

                        He probably ment he got a jump before the ball was hit. I played (and still play) CF my entire life and you have a unique view of the pitcher and hitter which allows you to get a good jump on the ball.
                        My Fan Page http://theusualgamer.net/MyFanPage_Heelfan71.aspx
                        Heelfans Blog http://www.operationsports.com/Heelfan71/blog/

                        Comment

                        • Heelfan71
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 19940

                          #87
                          Re: Best CF ever ?

                          He probably ment he got a jump before the ball was hit. I played (and still play) CF my entire life and you have a unique view of the pitcher and hitter which allows you to get a good jump on the ball.
                          My Fan Page http://theusualgamer.net/MyFanPage_Heelfan71.aspx
                          Heelfans Blog http://www.operationsports.com/Heelfan71/blog/

                          Comment

                          • TheLetterZ
                            All Star
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 6752

                            #88
                            Re: Best CF ever ?

                            Originally posted by dce1228
                            I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but saying there isn't anything concrete as far as statistical records is an ethnocentric statement. The Negro League way of keeping statistics, while different from the MLB way, is hardly inferior simply because it's different. And besides, to hold this against players who WERE NOT ALLOWED to play in the MLB is not only ludicrous but cruel.

                            You can make the argument that Cobb and Mays were as good as Charleston, but Josh Gibson was hands down the greatest catcher, if not the greatest right-handed hitter, EVER. There were plenty of witnesses who saw him play, both white and black, and when you're compared to Babe Ruth there's little left to be discerned. Would you compare Bench or Berra to Ruth?

                            In life we learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying this to unearth guilt or start a flame war, but when your system of keeping statistics is exclusive and therefore flawed, how can you consider it concrete. I take the words of the people who were actually there to heart, and Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher ever.
                            Well first of all, you said something about a Negro League way of keeping statistics. I don't know what you mean by this, and I haven't seen any kind of numbers at all. I think you have to put some trust into the things people say about them, but stories are still just the opinions of people. I'm obviously not old enough to have seen any of them play and I haven't personally spoken with anyone who has either.

                            And about Gibson, it just depends on your vantage point. If I'm looking at peak value, there's not doubt in my mind that Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher of all-time. However, I like to factor in career value as well and Berra and Bench were productive for a long time while I believe Gibson had a much shorter career.

                            Comment

                            • TheLetterZ
                              All Star
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 6752

                              #89
                              Re: Best CF ever ?

                              Originally posted by dce1228
                              I hate to sound like a wet blanket, but saying there isn't anything concrete as far as statistical records is an ethnocentric statement. The Negro League way of keeping statistics, while different from the MLB way, is hardly inferior simply because it's different. And besides, to hold this against players who WERE NOT ALLOWED to play in the MLB is not only ludicrous but cruel.

                              You can make the argument that Cobb and Mays were as good as Charleston, but Josh Gibson was hands down the greatest catcher, if not the greatest right-handed hitter, EVER. There were plenty of witnesses who saw him play, both white and black, and when you're compared to Babe Ruth there's little left to be discerned. Would you compare Bench or Berra to Ruth?

                              In life we learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying this to unearth guilt or start a flame war, but when your system of keeping statistics is exclusive and therefore flawed, how can you consider it concrete. I take the words of the people who were actually there to heart, and Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher ever.
                              Well first of all, you said something about a Negro League way of keeping statistics. I don't know what you mean by this, and I haven't seen any kind of numbers at all. I think you have to put some trust into the things people say about them, but stories are still just the opinions of people. I'm obviously not old enough to have seen any of them play and I haven't personally spoken with anyone who has either.

                              And about Gibson, it just depends on your vantage point. If I'm looking at peak value, there's not doubt in my mind that Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher of all-time. However, I like to factor in career value as well and Berra and Bench were productive for a long time while I believe Gibson had a much shorter career.

                              Comment

                              • Misfit
                                All Star
                                • Mar 2003
                                • 5766

                                #90
                                Re: Best CF ever ?

                                Mays for me. In my opinion, he may be the best overall player to ever play the game.

                                Comment

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