Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

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  • USCTrojan83
    Pro
    • Mar 2005
    • 591

    #31
    Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

    Originally posted by glucklich
    Dustys strength is the morale side of it. Hes an awful strategist.
    Hmmmmm worst move ever wasnt he the one who orchestrated the WS game 6 in 2002 when he gave Russ Ortiz the game ball and brought inthe relief? And then Spezio took the reliever for a 3 run jack?

    Great move Dusty!! Bravo....haha (angel fan here sorry SF)

    I think hes top five
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    • DuffysCliff
      Rookie
      • Jan 2004
      • 294

      #32
      Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

      Originally posted by glucklich
      Dustys strength is the morale side of it. Hes an awful strategist.
      He just has no idea on how to manage a pitching staff.

      Comment

      • DuffysCliff
        Rookie
        • Jan 2004
        • 294

        #33
        Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

        Originally posted by glucklich
        Dustys strength is the morale side of it. Hes an awful strategist.
        He just has no idea on how to manage a pitching staff.

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        • USCTrojan83
          Pro
          • Mar 2005
          • 591

          #34
          Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

          Originally posted by glucklich
          I dont get it. The 8 straight losses by LaRussa are from two WS appearancs ranging from 1990 to 2004, yet Bobby Cox goes to how many WSs with loaded teams and wins only once. Cox had more shots at the title than LaRussa and has a lower success rate, yet somehow Cox is better for that reason? WTF? I agree Cox is better but I really dont get this logic--AT ALL.
          Cox is 1/5 in WS Appearances
          Larussa is 1/4 in WS Appearrances

          Cox Winning % = .567
          Larussa's = .534

          1st place finishes in Division (Both have coached the same number of years)
          Cox = 14 (Cox has won his division 13 times in 15 years with ATL)
          Larussa = 10 ( 7 - 1st places in last 15 years)

          Number of 100 WIN SEASONS
          Cox = 6 ( All with ATL)
          Larussa = 3 (2 with OAK and 1 with STL)

          Number of Losses
          Cox = 1531
          Larussa = 1846

          I dont think the numbers lie...If someone wants to give me a better reason why Larussa is better Id love to know...

          http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/

          It is widely believed Cox has done MORE with less (I.E. payroll, and talent)than any other manager in recent memory
          Last edited by USCTrojan83; 03-19-2005, 02:06 PM.
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          • USCTrojan83
            Pro
            • Mar 2005
            • 591

            #35
            Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

            Originally posted by glucklich
            I dont get it. The 8 straight losses by LaRussa are from two WS appearancs ranging from 1990 to 2004, yet Bobby Cox goes to how many WSs with loaded teams and wins only once. Cox had more shots at the title than LaRussa and has a lower success rate, yet somehow Cox is better for that reason? WTF? I agree Cox is better but I really dont get this logic--AT ALL.
            Cox is 1/5 in WS Appearances
            Larussa is 1/4 in WS Appearrances

            Cox Winning % = .567
            Larussa's = .534

            1st place finishes in Division (Both have coached the same number of years)
            Cox = 14 (Cox has won his division 13 times in 15 years with ATL)
            Larussa = 10 ( 7 - 1st places in last 15 years)

            Number of 100 WIN SEASONS
            Cox = 6 ( All with ATL)
            Larussa = 3 (2 with OAK and 1 with STL)

            Number of Losses
            Cox = 1531
            Larussa = 1846

            I dont think the numbers lie...If someone wants to give me a better reason why Larussa is better Id love to know...

            http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/

            It is widely believed Cox has done MORE with less (I.E. payroll, and talent)than any other manager in recent memory
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            • AI_Franchise
              Banned
              • Nov 2002
              • 2146

              #36
              Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

              .

              I was just saying is there a comparable coach in the NFL that is like a Torre (MLB) or Jackson (NBA) that has had the amount of success(luck) as to get great players year in and year out and never have to bring teams out of mediocricy ala Larry Brown(NBA)

              I knows its off thread topic but just an interesting question
              ah, Bill Walsh maybe?

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              • AI_Franchise
                Banned
                • Nov 2002
                • 2146

                #37
                Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                .

                I was just saying is there a comparable coach in the NFL that is like a Torre (MLB) or Jackson (NBA) that has had the amount of success(luck) as to get great players year in and year out and never have to bring teams out of mediocricy ala Larry Brown(NBA)

                I knows its off thread topic but just an interesting question
                ah, Bill Walsh maybe?

                Comment

                • glucklich
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 4272

                  #38
                  Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                  Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                  It is widely believed Cox has done MORE with less (I.E. payroll, and talent)than any other manager in recent memory
                  Thats simply not true. Alou has gotten more out of less. So has Jim Leyland, Lou Pinella. Speaking of Lou Pinella, Joe Torre wins because the Yankees sign guys like ARod and such. Lou Pinella loses guys like Randy Johnson, Junior and ARod and still manages to win 110 + games with less talent than teams like the Skankees. Hes also made the DRays respectable. Just because the Braves have roster turnover doesnt mean that they have less. Plus Mazzone is the best pitching coach there is and John Schuerholz is a very capable GM. Cox is a good mgr. Im not saying hes not but you guys who are basing it on winning % and WS wins arent seeing the whole picture.

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                  • glucklich
                    Banned
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 4272

                    #39
                    Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                    Originally posted by USCTrojan83
                    It is widely believed Cox has done MORE with less (I.E. payroll, and talent)than any other manager in recent memory
                    Thats simply not true. Alou has gotten more out of less. So has Jim Leyland, Lou Pinella. Speaking of Lou Pinella, Joe Torre wins because the Yankees sign guys like ARod and such. Lou Pinella loses guys like Randy Johnson, Junior and ARod and still manages to win 110 + games with less talent than teams like the Skankees. Hes also made the DRays respectable. Just because the Braves have roster turnover doesnt mean that they have less. Plus Mazzone is the best pitching coach there is and John Schuerholz is a very capable GM. Cox is a good mgr. Im not saying hes not but you guys who are basing it on winning % and WS wins arent seeing the whole picture.

                    Comment

                    • USCTrojan83
                      Pro
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 591

                      #40
                      Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                      Originally posted by glucklich
                      Thats simply not true. Alou has gotten more out of less. So has Jim Leyland, Lou Pinella. Speaking of Lou Pinella, Joe Torre wins because the Yankees sign guys like ARod and such. Lou Pinella loses guys like Randy Johnson, Junior and ARod and still manages to win 110 + games with less talent than teams like the Skankees. Hes also made the DRays respectable. Just because the Braves have roster turnover doesnt mean that they have less. Plus Mazzone is the best pitching coach there is and John Schuerholz is a very capable GM. Cox is a good mgr. Im not saying hes not but you guys who are basing it on winning % and WS wins arent seeing the whole picture.
                      Mazzone is a great pitching coach!! But like a good manager you surround yourself with great assistants...you cant knock Cox for having a great pitching coach

                      Pinella did do well for in Seattle for 2 years (won 110+ games once who are we to say he would have continues that) after the big 3 left....
                      Pinella has only 4 Division Championships (Career) and 1 world series win in as many appearances....As far as TB goes...69 wins by larry rothschild in 2000...and only 70 by Pinella last year....Respect back to the franchise hasnt been brought by Pinella himself, its been by their consistent top 5 picks in every draft for the past few years that are finally beginning to develop and giving pinella talent to work with...I agree Pinella is a good coach...maybe top 5-10 in our generation but NOT better than Torre, Cox, or Larussa...

                      Jim Leyland has a career W% of .486 (i know you hate me basing it off that) but WINS bring Championships and money to owners..Leyland has only 3 Division championships and 1 world series win (which Jeffery Loria (GM) bought him all those players of great caliber).....no over 100+ win seasons....8/13 losing seasons(below .500 W%). good coach once again not better than the Cox, Torre, Larussa..Come on Gluklitch....NUMBERS DONT LIE...

                      Alou....I agree he has done MORE than any other coach with less talent.....He kept MON competing till about 1996 with a decent record....Hes done well with SF....BUT hes coached for 10 years....and I think we need to see what he can do in an orginization that provides him a chance at a division championship every year...

                      I agree with you that Pinella, Leyland and Alou are DECENT coaches...but better than Torre, Cox, Larussa...You have to be kidding me...If you were a GM you would hire Pinella, Leyland, or Alou over the other 3???

                      Look gluklitch you CANT knock a coach for WINNING...Period...Winning makes money...simple....I took into consideration all those coaches...but by # of wins...losses...division championships, league championships, WS appearances and so forth speak volumes over what a coach did when they coached in MON....Its a fact...ask any owner in the buisness...

                      Just winning 13/15 division championships speaks volumes that a coach can deal with roster turnover which does deal with at times having less talent and sometimes better....The Braves have a great GM in Shuerholtz but he gives Bobby Cox a set of players and says win me ball games....You cant knock a team for having a good upper management...If the coach is blamed for losing why not give him the credit for winning too?

                      1. Cox
                      2. Torre
                      3. Larussa
                      4. Pinella
                      5. Alou or Baker
                      6. Whichever you didnt take for #5
                      7. Tommy Lasorda
                      8. Jimy Williams
                      9. Bruce Bochy
                      10. Bobby Valentine
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                      • USCTrojan83
                        Pro
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 591

                        #41
                        Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                        Originally posted by glucklich
                        Thats simply not true. Alou has gotten more out of less. So has Jim Leyland, Lou Pinella. Speaking of Lou Pinella, Joe Torre wins because the Yankees sign guys like ARod and such. Lou Pinella loses guys like Randy Johnson, Junior and ARod and still manages to win 110 + games with less talent than teams like the Skankees. Hes also made the DRays respectable. Just because the Braves have roster turnover doesnt mean that they have less. Plus Mazzone is the best pitching coach there is and John Schuerholz is a very capable GM. Cox is a good mgr. Im not saying hes not but you guys who are basing it on winning % and WS wins arent seeing the whole picture.
                        Mazzone is a great pitching coach!! But like a good manager you surround yourself with great assistants...you cant knock Cox for having a great pitching coach

                        Pinella did do well for in Seattle for 2 years (won 110+ games once who are we to say he would have continues that) after the big 3 left....
                        Pinella has only 4 Division Championships (Career) and 1 world series win in as many appearances....As far as TB goes...69 wins by larry rothschild in 2000...and only 70 by Pinella last year....Respect back to the franchise hasnt been brought by Pinella himself, its been by their consistent top 5 picks in every draft for the past few years that are finally beginning to develop and giving pinella talent to work with...I agree Pinella is a good coach...maybe top 5-10 in our generation but NOT better than Torre, Cox, or Larussa...

                        Jim Leyland has a career W% of .486 (i know you hate me basing it off that) but WINS bring Championships and money to owners..Leyland has only 3 Division championships and 1 world series win (which Jeffery Loria (GM) bought him all those players of great caliber).....no over 100+ win seasons....8/13 losing seasons(below .500 W%). good coach once again not better than the Cox, Torre, Larussa..Come on Gluklitch....NUMBERS DONT LIE...

                        Alou....I agree he has done MORE than any other coach with less talent.....He kept MON competing till about 1996 with a decent record....Hes done well with SF....BUT hes coached for 10 years....and I think we need to see what he can do in an orginization that provides him a chance at a division championship every year...

                        I agree with you that Pinella, Leyland and Alou are DECENT coaches...but better than Torre, Cox, Larussa...You have to be kidding me...If you were a GM you would hire Pinella, Leyland, or Alou over the other 3???

                        Look gluklitch you CANT knock a coach for WINNING...Period...Winning makes money...simple....I took into consideration all those coaches...but by # of wins...losses...division championships, league championships, WS appearances and so forth speak volumes over what a coach did when they coached in MON....Its a fact...ask any owner in the buisness...

                        Just winning 13/15 division championships speaks volumes that a coach can deal with roster turnover which does deal with at times having less talent and sometimes better....The Braves have a great GM in Shuerholtz but he gives Bobby Cox a set of players and says win me ball games....You cant knock a team for having a good upper management...If the coach is blamed for losing why not give him the credit for winning too?

                        1. Cox
                        2. Torre
                        3. Larussa
                        4. Pinella
                        5. Alou or Baker
                        6. Whichever you didnt take for #5
                        7. Tommy Lasorda
                        8. Jimy Williams
                        9. Bruce Bochy
                        10. Bobby Valentine
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                        • USCTrojan83
                          Pro
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 591

                          #42
                          Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                          Gluklitch who do you think the best manager of our generation ('80-'04)? and why?

                          I understand some of your arguements and agree with the doing more with less over their career...But I WASNT comparing every manager in our decade on that basis alone...there more to the best manager of our decande than JUST that, I was comparing Larussa and Torre to Cox with consideration to doing more with less...

                          Pinella lost Johnson, Rodriguez and Griffey

                          Cox lost Glavine, Justice, Pendleton, Maddux, Sheffield, Mcgriff, Galarraga, plus other notables that probably wont have a chance at the HOF...
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                          • USCTrojan83
                            Pro
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 591

                            #43
                            Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                            Gluklitch who do you think the best manager of our generation ('80-'04)? and why?

                            I understand some of your arguements and agree with the doing more with less over their career...But I WASNT comparing every manager in our decade on that basis alone...there more to the best manager of our decande than JUST that, I was comparing Larussa and Torre to Cox with consideration to doing more with less...

                            Pinella lost Johnson, Rodriguez and Griffey

                            Cox lost Glavine, Justice, Pendleton, Maddux, Sheffield, Mcgriff, Galarraga, plus other notables that probably wont have a chance at the HOF...
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                            • USCTrojan83
                              Pro
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 591

                              #44
                              Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                              Originally posted by AI_Franchise
                              ah, Bill Walsh maybe?
                              Very true...I thought Holmgren and maybe Ditka
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                              • USCTrojan83
                                Pro
                                • Mar 2005
                                • 591

                                #45
                                Re: Tony La Russa: greatest manager of our generation?

                                Originally posted by AI_Franchise
                                ah, Bill Walsh maybe?
                                Very true...I thought Holmgren and maybe Ditka
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