Bonds before and after

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  • bigmark
    Banned
    • Aug 2003
    • 1584

    #91
    Re: Bonds before and after

    You Giants fans are pathetic.
    Full of denial, and straw-man arguments.

    "Yeah, but Joe Scrub from the Minor Leagues isn't hitting 70 HR's. Bonds has good hand-eye coordination and he's better than most players without steroids".

    Get it through you thick head that nobody is disputing those things.
    What us sane people are questioning is how it's remotely possible to go from "never more than 49 HR's before the age of 35" to his superior numbers lately every year after 35. He's the only athlete in the history of the world to get better after 35.

    He's still a HOFer but the records are a joke; and to say there should be an asterisk is an understatement. Not that Bonds is alone in that department.

    Comment

    • USCTrojan83
      Pro
      • Mar 2005
      • 591

      #92
      Re: Bonds before and after

      Originally posted by bigmark
      You Giants fans are pathetic.
      Full of denial, and straw-man arguments.

      "Yeah, but Joe Scrub from the Minor Leagues isn't hitting 70 HR's. Bonds has good hand-eye coordination and he's better than most players without steroids".

      Get it through you thick head that nobody is disputing those things.
      What us sane people are questioning is how it's remotely possible to go from "never more than 49 HR's before the age of 35" to his superior numbers lately every year after 35. He's the only athlete in the history of the world to get better after 35.

      He's still a HOFer but the records are a joke; and to say there should be an asterisk is an understatement. Not that Bonds is alone in that department.
      I think its hilarious everyone in here acts like they've never cheated or lied to get something they wanted. Or maybe you still think its not cheating until you get caught.

      First off no one sat here and called you names for sticking by your opinion, littlemark. Nobody is in denial, nor is anyone making straw man arguements.

      Theres guys like randy johnson, clemens, and even mike schmidt and hank aarons #'s went up or stayed consistent after 35. What about Mr. Julio Franco at age 46 still hits for average and power, plays 110+ games. If steroids is supposed to have this dramatic effect that all of you people think it does, then why do more STAR (not minor leaguers) players not consider taking it. Dont give me the theyre afraid of death because when millions are at stake players would take it long enough to increase their stats for a fat contract ala Jason Giambi.

      Amphetamines are taken by a majority of MLB players and they help players just as much as the fabled steroid. They are a synthetic legal dose of a drug some know as speed. It gets a player up in the morning, through pain, and can increase motor skills. This allows the brain to focus on the right thing at the right time, and to be less distracted, and less impulsive. Which keeps players in times of high stress at a calm level. This drug is more lethal than roids and is more likely to be abused according to research. This in some ways have shown increase in motorskills, thus increasing hand eye coordination. This is why MANY MLB players use it. This drug is banned in all other athletic venues EXCEPT the MLB Maybe Congress and the public should worry about somehing else. Gaylord Perry, Phil Neikro and others kept their HOF plaque and records clean of asteriks, why change things?

      If Bonds were to get healthy and STILL AVERAGE 35+ HR's a year would you then look at him a in a different light? Just a question curious of the response.
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      • USCTrojan83
        Pro
        • Mar 2005
        • 591

        #93
        Re: Bonds before and after

        Originally posted by bigmark
        You Giants fans are pathetic.
        Full of denial, and straw-man arguments.

        "Yeah, but Joe Scrub from the Minor Leagues isn't hitting 70 HR's. Bonds has good hand-eye coordination and he's better than most players without steroids".

        Get it through you thick head that nobody is disputing those things.
        What us sane people are questioning is how it's remotely possible to go from "never more than 49 HR's before the age of 35" to his superior numbers lately every year after 35. He's the only athlete in the history of the world to get better after 35.

        He's still a HOFer but the records are a joke; and to say there should be an asterisk is an understatement. Not that Bonds is alone in that department.
        I think its hilarious everyone in here acts like they've never cheated or lied to get something they wanted. Or maybe you still think its not cheating until you get caught.

        First off no one sat here and called you names for sticking by your opinion, littlemark. Nobody is in denial, nor is anyone making straw man arguements.

        Theres guys like randy johnson, clemens, and even mike schmidt and hank aarons #'s went up or stayed consistent after 35. What about Mr. Julio Franco at age 46 still hits for average and power, plays 110+ games. If steroids is supposed to have this dramatic effect that all of you people think it does, then why do more STAR (not minor leaguers) players not consider taking it. Dont give me the theyre afraid of death because when millions are at stake players would take it long enough to increase their stats for a fat contract ala Jason Giambi.

        Amphetamines are taken by a majority of MLB players and they help players just as much as the fabled steroid. They are a synthetic legal dose of a drug some know as speed. It gets a player up in the morning, through pain, and can increase motor skills. This allows the brain to focus on the right thing at the right time, and to be less distracted, and less impulsive. Which keeps players in times of high stress at a calm level. This drug is more lethal than roids and is more likely to be abused according to research. This in some ways have shown increase in motorskills, thus increasing hand eye coordination. This is why MANY MLB players use it. This drug is banned in all other athletic venues EXCEPT the MLB Maybe Congress and the public should worry about somehing else. Gaylord Perry, Phil Neikro and others kept their HOF plaque and records clean of asteriks, why change things?

        If Bonds were to get healthy and STILL AVERAGE 35+ HR's a year would you then look at him a in a different light? Just a question curious of the response.
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        Comment

        • remix
          MVP
          • Aug 2004
          • 2718

          #94
          Re: Bonds before and after

          Originally posted by bigmark
          You Giants fans are pathetic.
          Full of denial, and straw-man arguments.

          "Yeah, but Joe Scrub from the Minor Leagues isn't hitting 70 HR's. Bonds has good hand-eye coordination and he's better than most players without steroids".

          Get it through you thick head that nobody is disputing those things.
          What us sane people are questioning is how it's remotely possible to go from "never more than 49 HR's before the age of 35" to his superior numbers lately every year after 35. He's the only athlete in the history of the world to get better after 35.

          He's still a HOFer but the records are a joke; and to say there should be an asterisk is an understatement. Not that Bonds is alone in that department.
          Heh so general.. "you giants fans..", sure sounds like the whole accusing of "You Detroit fans.." after the brawl..

          Anyways - I, for one am not in denial, and do believe he took roids, everyone should know that by now. You guys show pictures from when he entered the league in what.. 1986, compared to now? Is that even right to judge? Oh he gained a lot of muscle in the offseason - STEROID USER! No, that's not how its done, because you very well CAN gain 20 pounds of muscle with a strict workout plan - Didn't Arod do it this season? Didn't Kobe do it? You know where I'm going.

          The problem I have is that people are applauding that he's injured, wishing he'll never step up to the plate again. Hell, you might as wish he'd all of a sudden find out he has cancer and will be gone before everyones eyes.
          Last edited by remix; 03-22-2005, 06:08 PM.
          I do because I can, I can because I want, I want because you say I can't

          Comment

          • remix
            MVP
            • Aug 2004
            • 2718

            #95
            Re: Bonds before and after

            Originally posted by bigmark
            You Giants fans are pathetic.
            Full of denial, and straw-man arguments.

            "Yeah, but Joe Scrub from the Minor Leagues isn't hitting 70 HR's. Bonds has good hand-eye coordination and he's better than most players without steroids".

            Get it through you thick head that nobody is disputing those things.
            What us sane people are questioning is how it's remotely possible to go from "never more than 49 HR's before the age of 35" to his superior numbers lately every year after 35. He's the only athlete in the history of the world to get better after 35.

            He's still a HOFer but the records are a joke; and to say there should be an asterisk is an understatement. Not that Bonds is alone in that department.
            Heh so general.. "you giants fans..", sure sounds like the whole accusing of "You Detroit fans.." after the brawl..

            Anyways - I, for one am not in denial, and do believe he took roids, everyone should know that by now. You guys show pictures from when he entered the league in what.. 1986, compared to now? Is that even right to judge? Oh he gained a lot of muscle in the offseason - STEROID USER! No, that's not how its done, because you very well CAN gain 20 pounds of muscle with a strict workout plan - Didn't Arod do it this season? Didn't Kobe do it? You know where I'm going.

            The problem I have is that people are applauding that he's injured, wishing he'll never step up to the plate again. Hell, you might as wish he'd all of a sudden find out he has cancer and will be gone before everyones eyes.
            I do because I can, I can because I want, I want because you say I can't

            Comment

            • umd
              MVP
              • Aug 2002
              • 1970

              #96
              Re: Bonds before and after

              Originally posted by remix
              Heh so general.. "you giants fans..", sure sounds like the whole accusing of "You Detroit fans.." after the brawl..

              Anyways - I, for one am not in denial, and do believe he took roids, everyone should know that by now. You guys show pictures from when he entered the league in what.. 1986, compared to now? Is that even right to judge? Oh he gained a lot of muscle in the offseason - STEROID USER! No, that's not how its done, because you very well CAN gain 20 pounds of muscle with a strict workout plan - Didn't Arod do it this season? Didn't Kobe do it? You know where I'm going.

              The problem I have is that people are applauding that he's injured, wishing he'll never step up to the plate again. Hell, you might as wish he'd all of a sudden find out he has cancer and will be gone before everyones eyes.
              Think of it as "balance". He's hurt so ****ing what. if he wasnt hurt he'd go and break some pretty hallowed baseball records based on his roid seasons.

              Here's a question do you think the only reason he's really not going to play is because he's injured? Or is it plausible that it has something to do with his steroid use whether that possible use influences how fast he can return? Or even whether that use might influence whether he wants to get roid tested this season or in the future? There's more to it than him being "hurt". Good riddance. Its a shame baseball let it get to this point.

              Comment

              • umd
                MVP
                • Aug 2002
                • 1970

                #97
                Re: Bonds before and after

                Originally posted by remix
                Heh so general.. "you giants fans..", sure sounds like the whole accusing of "You Detroit fans.." after the brawl..

                Anyways - I, for one am not in denial, and do believe he took roids, everyone should know that by now. You guys show pictures from when he entered the league in what.. 1986, compared to now? Is that even right to judge? Oh he gained a lot of muscle in the offseason - STEROID USER! No, that's not how its done, because you very well CAN gain 20 pounds of muscle with a strict workout plan - Didn't Arod do it this season? Didn't Kobe do it? You know where I'm going.

                The problem I have is that people are applauding that he's injured, wishing he'll never step up to the plate again. Hell, you might as wish he'd all of a sudden find out he has cancer and will be gone before everyones eyes.
                Think of it as "balance". He's hurt so ****ing what. if he wasnt hurt he'd go and break some pretty hallowed baseball records based on his roid seasons.

                Here's a question do you think the only reason he's really not going to play is because he's injured? Or is it plausible that it has something to do with his steroid use whether that possible use influences how fast he can return? Or even whether that use might influence whether he wants to get roid tested this season or in the future? There's more to it than him being "hurt". Good riddance. Its a shame baseball let it get to this point.

                Comment

                • iLLmatic
                  MVP
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 1103

                  #98
                  Re: Bonds before and after

                  all of your points have been taken into consideration and i love a little back and forth debate. but lets go back to the topic of the thread: BONDS BEFORE AND AFTER. and lets take another look at the photo of James Toney on page 2 or 3 of this thread. I live in the bay area have been a giants fan even before bonds was here and have seen the gradual process of his growth. contrary to popular belief he didnt go from looking like a basketball player to looking like a linebacker in a year or 2. his weight gain has been gradual since 1990. ESPN had a weight comparison that showed that from 1986-2004 he had gained 38lbs. 186lbs to 224. if you do the math on that people it averages out to about 2.2 lbs a year. add that to nutriotionalists, lifting year round with no layoffs in the winter and you mean to tell me a man cant gain 2 flippin pounds a year? and give up this "Its muscle mass he gained. thats impossible" crap.

                  I have seen barry bonds with his shirt off. he aint ripped and he has a little bit of a gut. no six pack no odd looking veins poppin out from everywhere. he aint chiseled he is just BIGGER than he WAS as a pirate. and the growth has been steady. If James toney can go from a middleweight to a heavyweight with no roids or "juice", how come bonds could not have done it? I can give a rats azz whether or not he did it because i aint gonna benefit or suffer from it. We still have no world series trophies in san francisco and as a FAN thats what I am concerned with. is it his hat size? is it because he was skinny in his 20's and now he isnt? And the excuse he is about to break records is weak too. He could be regular ol barry bonds that everyone hates with no 70 home run season, no possible all time record for homers and you still would pile on. WHY? because you all hate barry lamar bonds and you just dont want to admit it. is he an a-hole? probably. is he a prick? yeah sure but does that mean he had to have used roids because his high school buddy of 20+ years was slangin em to other people? guilt by association dont work for me.

                  there is a laundry list of nfl, mlb, even hockey and nba guys who have or have had trainers who do the same thing but have never been caught for it or hey possibly never knew what their trainer was doin on the side. but besides Jordan, Bonds is the most high profile athlete there has been in a few years. and if you can find something suspicious enough to raise a little doubt, like how it was thought that Jordans father died because of jordans possible gambling problem, you will and thats what has happened. Is this all about getting barry? maybe. maybe not. but the way this topic gets resurrected every 3 days or so tells me all I need to know.

                  Comment

                  • iLLmatic
                    MVP
                    • Dec 2002
                    • 1103

                    #99
                    Re: Bonds before and after

                    all of your points have been taken into consideration and i love a little back and forth debate. but lets go back to the topic of the thread: BONDS BEFORE AND AFTER. and lets take another look at the photo of James Toney on page 2 or 3 of this thread. I live in the bay area have been a giants fan even before bonds was here and have seen the gradual process of his growth. contrary to popular belief he didnt go from looking like a basketball player to looking like a linebacker in a year or 2. his weight gain has been gradual since 1990. ESPN had a weight comparison that showed that from 1986-2004 he had gained 38lbs. 186lbs to 224. if you do the math on that people it averages out to about 2.2 lbs a year. add that to nutriotionalists, lifting year round with no layoffs in the winter and you mean to tell me a man cant gain 2 flippin pounds a year? and give up this "Its muscle mass he gained. thats impossible" crap.

                    I have seen barry bonds with his shirt off. he aint ripped and he has a little bit of a gut. no six pack no odd looking veins poppin out from everywhere. he aint chiseled he is just BIGGER than he WAS as a pirate. and the growth has been steady. If James toney can go from a middleweight to a heavyweight with no roids or "juice", how come bonds could not have done it? I can give a rats azz whether or not he did it because i aint gonna benefit or suffer from it. We still have no world series trophies in san francisco and as a FAN thats what I am concerned with. is it his hat size? is it because he was skinny in his 20's and now he isnt? And the excuse he is about to break records is weak too. He could be regular ol barry bonds that everyone hates with no 70 home run season, no possible all time record for homers and you still would pile on. WHY? because you all hate barry lamar bonds and you just dont want to admit it. is he an a-hole? probably. is he a prick? yeah sure but does that mean he had to have used roids because his high school buddy of 20+ years was slangin em to other people? guilt by association dont work for me.

                    there is a laundry list of nfl, mlb, even hockey and nba guys who have or have had trainers who do the same thing but have never been caught for it or hey possibly never knew what their trainer was doin on the side. but besides Jordan, Bonds is the most high profile athlete there has been in a few years. and if you can find something suspicious enough to raise a little doubt, like how it was thought that Jordans father died because of jordans possible gambling problem, you will and thats what has happened. Is this all about getting barry? maybe. maybe not. but the way this topic gets resurrected every 3 days or so tells me all I need to know.

                    Comment

                    • Blzer
                      Resident film pundit
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 42520

                      #100
                      Re: Bonds before and after

                      Just want to make sure RattDaddee read this:





                      Originally posted by Blzer
                      Stop right there, and back up a moment. First of all, it is 309 feet. I don't care if you asy that 2 feet doesn't make a difference, because then where does the line stop that it makes a difference? 3 feet? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? The list goes on... whenever it stops is up to you, but for me, I've come to realize that 6 inches has determined a home run before.

                      Secondly, it's a 27 foot high wall. We all know about the Green Monster and how it doesn't take any line drives.

                      Thirdly, the wall goes from 309 to RIGHT DOWN THE LINE, to 365 in right right-center, and 421 to right-center... at 421 is a 24 foot high wall. Somebody correct me if these numbers are wrong.


                      Finally, the big factors... the wind, and the night spell. The wind blows in from right field, and we're right by the bay, making it much stronger winds. Which ever way you look at it, I guarantee you that a 400 foot shot in right center field will only go 385 - 390 feet on a good day. Then, at night time, there is some good night spell in the sky, where if you hit a ball high enough, it will get knocked down... guaranteed.

                      If you want to go to http://www.barrybonds.com and look at his home runs (659 - 703) at home, you will see his spray of home runs, and how many go down the line at 309... and for those ones, exactly how many just make it over.



                      If that's not enough proof, McCovey Cove is no more than 350 feet away from home plate down the right field line, and no more than 410 in right right-center. Now, how many people other than Bonds have ever reached the cove, and how many have done it more than once?

                      Better yet, what's the ratio of home runs hit to left field vs home runs hit to right field in that part? That's what I thought. It's 5:1... and that's WITH Bonds on the team.




                      I don't like to sound like some sort of smart alec, but when it comes to somebody saying that hitting it out of right field at SBC Park is easy, it basically forces me to tell people to say, "Shut up, and get your facts straight."

                      Here's a little bit of information for you, pal. I go to well over 30 Giants games a year, and enough right next to Bonds' wife herself (that is, if I'm in Colin Sabean's seats). I'd know a little more about the park I'd say. Not saying that I do, but when you only use a right field line dimension as a crutch to support your theory on his home runs, you have problems.


                      Go ahead, go to http://www.barrybonds.com. Watch his home runs. Count how many balls make it over the fence between 309 - 320 feet. I'll tell you right now that you'd be lucky to find 3.
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                      Comment

                      • Blzer
                        Resident film pundit
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 42520

                        #101
                        Re: Bonds before and after

                        Just want to make sure RattDaddee read this:





                        Originally posted by Blzer
                        Stop right there, and back up a moment. First of all, it is 309 feet. I don't care if you asy that 2 feet doesn't make a difference, because then where does the line stop that it makes a difference? 3 feet? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9? 10? The list goes on... whenever it stops is up to you, but for me, I've come to realize that 6 inches has determined a home run before.

                        Secondly, it's a 27 foot high wall. We all know about the Green Monster and how it doesn't take any line drives.

                        Thirdly, the wall goes from 309 to RIGHT DOWN THE LINE, to 365 in right right-center, and 421 to right-center... at 421 is a 24 foot high wall. Somebody correct me if these numbers are wrong.


                        Finally, the big factors... the wind, and the night spell. The wind blows in from right field, and we're right by the bay, making it much stronger winds. Which ever way you look at it, I guarantee you that a 400 foot shot in right center field will only go 385 - 390 feet on a good day. Then, at night time, there is some good night spell in the sky, where if you hit a ball high enough, it will get knocked down... guaranteed.

                        If you want to go to http://www.barrybonds.com and look at his home runs (659 - 703) at home, you will see his spray of home runs, and how many go down the line at 309... and for those ones, exactly how many just make it over.



                        If that's not enough proof, McCovey Cove is no more than 350 feet away from home plate down the right field line, and no more than 410 in right right-center. Now, how many people other than Bonds have ever reached the cove, and how many have done it more than once?

                        Better yet, what's the ratio of home runs hit to left field vs home runs hit to right field in that part? That's what I thought. It's 5:1... and that's WITH Bonds on the team.




                        I don't like to sound like some sort of smart alec, but when it comes to somebody saying that hitting it out of right field at SBC Park is easy, it basically forces me to tell people to say, "Shut up, and get your facts straight."

                        Here's a little bit of information for you, pal. I go to well over 30 Giants games a year, and enough right next to Bonds' wife herself (that is, if I'm in Colin Sabean's seats). I'd know a little more about the park I'd say. Not saying that I do, but when you only use a right field line dimension as a crutch to support your theory on his home runs, you have problems.


                        Go ahead, go to http://www.barrybonds.com. Watch his home runs. Count how many balls make it over the fence between 309 - 320 feet. I'll tell you right now that you'd be lucky to find 3.
                        Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

                        Comment

                        • BGarrett7
                          All Star
                          • Jul 2003
                          • 5890

                          #102
                          Re: Bonds before and after

                          Originally posted by Blzer
                          Just want to make sure RattDaddee read this:
                          I saw. It was your smugness and demeanor that kept me from replying earlier. You made excellent points to prove me wrong, but your delivery left a lot to be desired.

                          Comment

                          • BGarrett7
                            All Star
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 5890

                            #103
                            Re: Bonds before and after

                            Originally posted by Blzer
                            Just want to make sure RattDaddee read this:
                            I saw. It was your smugness and demeanor that kept me from replying earlier. You made excellent points to prove me wrong, but your delivery left a lot to be desired.

                            Comment

                            • Blzer
                              Resident film pundit
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 42520

                              #104
                              Re: Bonds before and after

                              Originally posted by RattDaddee
                              I saw. It was your smugness and demeanor that kept me from replying earlier. You made excellent points to prove me wrong, but your delivery left a lot to be desired.
                              True.

                              Just trying to get that "short porch" out of everyone's head, because it truly is NOT a short porch by any stretch of the imagination.
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                              Comment

                              • Blzer
                                Resident film pundit
                                • Mar 2004
                                • 42520

                                #105
                                Re: Bonds before and after

                                Originally posted by RattDaddee
                                I saw. It was your smugness and demeanor that kept me from replying earlier. You made excellent points to prove me wrong, but your delivery left a lot to be desired.
                                True.

                                Just trying to get that "short porch" out of everyone's head, because it truly is NOT a short porch by any stretch of the imagination.
                                Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

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