2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I don't really think I'm selling Freddy short. He had one great season. The rest of his career is nothing remotely special. Whether it be because of injuries or whatever, it's clear his 2006 season was a fluke of sorts. He's not a power hitter, not a guy who is going to give you many RBI's, not a guy who walks, not a guy who steals, not even really a guy who hits for a high average aside from one season, I mean he's not really a great player by any means. He's just a great player for the PIRATES, because we have no great players.

In the Giants lineup, he's basically the same exact thing, which is why I don't understand how you trade for him if you're looking to make an offensive splash for the Wild Card.


As for the trades, yeah, they could backfire. The prospects could fail, yes. But they were still the right and best possible moves. It's still what you do if you want to rebuild your franchise. They got a LOT of promising young players for giving up a lot of mediocrity/average players. The fact is, we were a horrible team with these guys, at the very worst, we can be a horrible team without them. At least someone is trying to reestablish the franchise.

He might not hit HRs, but he is a doubles machine and does play an above average second base on defense -- that's nothing to sneeze at.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

It's not, but it's also nothing special. There's a ton of players in the league who are just like him, with half the reputation he has, simply because he won a batting title three years ago. It's simply not the kind of player you give up a top prospect for, or trade for when you need a bat.

Sean Burnett had some strong words about the Pirates that made me laugh. If anyone should be angry, I think it's the Pirates, considering the guy was yet another giant bust of a pitcher.

It kind of annoys me that we're being compared to the Nationals, in the same boat as the Nationals to the media, etc.. That franchise has zero direction. They're going nowhere. The Pirates are trying and look to be doing a good job of reestablishing themselves. I wish ESPN was smart enough to take notice of that.

[tyler289]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

It's not, but it's also nothing special. There's a ton of players in the league who are just like him, with half the reputation he has, simply because he won a batting title three years ago. It's simply not the kind of player you give up a top prospect for, or trade for when you need a bat.

Sean Burnett had some strong words about the Pirates that made me laugh. If anyone should be angry, I think it's the Pirates, considering the guy was yet another giant bust of a pitcher.

It kind of annoys me that we're being compared to the Nationals, in the same boat as the Nationals to the media, etc.. That franchise has zero direction. They're going nowhere. The Pirates are trying and look to be doing a good job of reestablishing themselves. I wish ESPN was smart enough to take notice of that.

I agree the Nationals are going nowhere. I made a long post about it on a Nationals forum I'm on. The Nationals are going to become the Pirates (10+ losing seasons). The Pirates have gotten rid of their veterans and replaced them with young guys. The Nationals kept their veterans and will play them all year. There's nothing for me, a Nats fan, to watch the rest of the season, except to pray that they call up some younger guys and start them every night. Our young pitchers have surprised me, but even they aren't all that great.

I just read this quote from Milledge:

"I think I was in a good position to succeed with the Nationals," he said. "They put me in the right position... I was a guy that wasn't producing, but I have nothing to complain about."

Good for him. At least he recognized it. While I don't agree that we (Acta) put him in a position to succeed, we did give him tons of chances to produce and he failed a lot. Hopefully he turns it around in Pittsburgh. He really needed a change of scenery. I'd regret the trade if Morgan wasn't hitting .400, playing the best defense of any CFer, and stealing bases (not to mention Lastings had no future here). Hanrahan, on the other hand, is a douche and Burnett has been amazing.

Here's to both the Pirates and Nationals being decent one day, though I feel one team is much closer....have fun with the sweep today and tomorrow. McCoutchen is a stud.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Here's furthermore why I can't stand the mainstream sports media:

http://jay-mariotti.fanhouse.com/2009/08/02/selig-must-investigate-quittsburgh-mess/#cont

Clearly we messed up trading future stars like Ronnie Paulino and Jose Bautista.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Here's furthermore why I can't stand the mainstream sports media:

http://jay-mariotti.fanhouse.com/2009/08/02/selig-must-investigate-quittsburgh-mess/#cont

Clearly we messed up trading future stars like Ronnie Paulino and Jose Bautista.

Yeah it's a big dog pile right now. He rags on Selig for not moving quickly to stop the Pirates from doing this (associating it with all of Bud's other missteps) yet this sports writer, like many others, has the same misconceptions about how baseball works for small-market teams.

I mean he calls out Cleveland for being the "Quittsburgh Pirates" of the AL...The Indians won 90+ games two straight years, had bad luck in one other year and HAD to sell off C.C. before he was a free agent (everyone knew he would get a monumental contract). They sold off CLee this year because they weren't going to contend this year or next, so get good value for him now. So all Shapiro has done is create the strongest minor league system (maybe outside of Texas or Tampa) for the next few years, but hey what does that matter for a small-market team, they could just go out and spend all that money they have on overpriced free agents, right?

He then brings up the Twins, saying they just hold onto their talent and then let them walk. I mean does that make sense to anyone else? They tried to re-sign Santana and Hunter, and then traded Santana when they couldn't (not that they pulled off a good deal, but it seemed solid at the time.) They ended up with not much for either of those two players, even though it was pretty obvious from the start both would get huge deals, loyalty to the Twins or not. I don't blame the Twins for trying to re-sign those guys either because you have to try and re-sign them since the Twins are usually in contention every year. The point is, though, is that using those two examples is faulty because it didn't do them much good to hold onto them.

I mean Jay was right to compare Neal and Shapiro because obviously NH was an assistant GM with Shapiro in Cleveland. But maybe if Jay just followed that connection a little further and read something like "Dealing" where the Cleveland rebuilding process is chronicled, he would get why this process (while risky) is the best known option to rebuild a small-market club in the quickest amount of time.

He sums it up by ragging on the Pirates for not finding out if the core they had could compete. Well Jay, they tried it Neal's first year and the team was only a couple games better than the "Quittsburgh Pirates" that are assembled now. Beyond that, he's mad the Pirates won't be playing a "spoiler" role? Come on, who the hell cares. If everyone plays the same version of the Pirates, no matter what the form, they still have to play the 9 innings. And then he's mad they cut so much payroll off the team. Jay there is no reason to balloon the payroll to $75 million at the MLB level when there is no chance to compete (at least if you're a small market). Reinvest the funds in the minor leagues and overseas, because then the talent is cheap when it arrives, hence all the behind-the-scenes scouting and drafting to make sure the MLB team can come in at a suitable price that can be helped out by a free agent or two who isn't incredibly overpaid.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

The one thing I do kind of agree about is how owners don't spend their share of the luxury tax on their team, which the Nuttings have been blasted over for years now. But then again, if a salary cap were in place, none of this crap would be an issue to begin with.

But still, the point is, signing overpaid free agents isn't the key to success. With the Pirates situation, what in the world kind of difference is it going to make to sign guys to 100 million dollar contracts? Teams like the Yankees/Sox spend ridiculous money, but they also have good farm systems. It's a lot easier to sign big talent when you have a core already in place through your farm system. That's when it's time to fill in the holes through free agency, if that's your strategy. When you have no farm system, no legit core of players, and are the most consistent losing team ever, what is the point of signing overpriced free agents? That's just a waste of money and a bigger setback.

In a world where Barry Zito is committed to a 100 million dollar contract, why would a team like the Pirates be interested in pursuing top tiered free agents?

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

The one thing I do kind of agree about is how owners don't spend their share of the luxury tax on their team, which the Nuttings have been blasted over for years now. But then again, if a salary cap were in place, none of this crap would be an issue to begin with.

But still, the point is, signing overpaid free agents isn't the key to success. With the Pirates situation, what in the world kind of difference is it going to make to sign guys to 100 million dollar contracts? Teams like the Yankees/Sox spend ridiculous money, but they also have good farm systems. It's a lot easier to sign big talent when you have a core already in place through your farm system. That's when it's time to fill in the holes through free agency, if that's your strategy. When you have no farm system, no legit core of players, and are the most consistent losing team ever, what is the point of signing overpriced free agents? That's just a waste of money and a bigger setback.

In a world where Barry Zito is committed to a 100 million dollar contract, why would a team like the Pirates be interested in pursuing top tiered free agents?

Well Nutting only got majority control recently, so I don't know how much can be pinned on McClatchy when it comes to that stuff....I would also disagree that the Yanks have a good farm system. That has been one of their issues in the past and hence why their payroll continued to balloon and balloon.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Oh, I mean right NOW they do. They went a few years with a terrible system. Fact is, they've produced a lot of good MLB talent. They still have a good number of guys in their farm as it stands now. Still not as good as the Sox, but it's good.

[BurghFan]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

That was some show McCutchen put on the Saturday night. Hopefully he'll continue to do well and develop and the Pirates won't trade him after he makes his 1st or 2nd All-Star game.

As someone else said, MLB needs a salaray cap . . . Bad. The amount of money the top players are making is absolutely ridiculous. Honestly, who really needs $10+ million a year? What are you gonna do with that money? It makes me even more sick watching these guys sign these ridiculous contracts considering the tough financial times we have been experiencing lately? The main reason I hate the Yankees is because they keep signing all the best players to these ridiculous contracts. In fact, there was one year when A-Rod's (I think) salary was more than the entire Pirates payroll.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

A-Rod's contract is the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen. Last season he had an above average year, although a year that plenty of others players also had, at less than half the salary. One way or another, you're never going to get your moneys worth paying 200+ million for one guy, unless he's going to pitch, hit, and play like 4 more positions.

My problem with the system is that there's no penalty for teams like the Yankees. So they can sign a Carl Pavano to a huge money deal, he can fail, and they can say "Oh well" and go out the next off season and sign the next name on the market to a big money deal. It shouldn't be that way. There's nothing to stop a team like that from spending. And yes, I'm well aware it isn't a proven winning formula or anything, but it DOES hurt other franchises. The Brewers offered CC 100 million. CC liked pitching in Milwaukee. The Brewers needed him if they wanted to think about competing again this season. 100 mill is already a godlike amount of money, but the Yankees managed to make even that seem like peanuts to CC, and they lure him away from Milwaukee, simply because of the money.

That just isn't fair, it's not like the Brewers could compete with the Steinbrenner's checkbook.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

If a salary cap is implemented, a salary floor should be as well. If teams like Boston and NY are forced to stay below a certain figure, teams like the Pirates and Marlins should be forced to pay above a certain figure.

My numbers might be off as I haven't looked at this in a while, but I think the Pirates got approximately 25 MIL in revenue sharing this season. If the Pirates aren't putting that money back into the major league roster, then I can understand why some big market teams are upset. With that said, there isn't a rule that states the Pirates must use that money on the major league roster (that's what it was intended for, but there's nothing that says it must happen) so they aren't doing anything wrong if they're paying off debt with it or putting it into scouting etc...

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I was a bit surprised to read this analysis of the Pirates top prospects from Baseball America.

----------------------

To be fair, several of the youngsters the Pirates acquired in this year's trades and last year's for Jason Bay, Damaso Marte and Xavier Nady no longer qualify as prospects. But it's still telling that only two trade acquisitions crack my Pirates Top 10 below, and those two (Tim Alderson and Gorkys Hernandez) are far from sure things. Pittsburgh has acquired a lot more quantity than quality. There are no obvious cornerstones to build around other than Andrew McCutchen and Pedro Alvarez, and amassing depth in complementary players isn't going to lead the Pirates to their first winning season since 1992.

We ranked Pittsburgh 18th among the 30 farm systems coming into 2009, and that evaluation doesn't figure to change dramatically when we evaluate organization talent again this offseason. The Pirates remain the favorites to sign Sano, though there are questions about his age. If they do land him, he'd rank right behind Alvarez on the list below.

1. Pedro Alvarez, 3b
Heating up in Double-A, showing why he got a $6 million bonus.
2. Brad Lincoln, rhp

Has put Tommy John surgery behind him, jumped to Triple-A.
3. Tony Sanchez, c

Hitting .341 in pro debut, but Pirates could have done better with No. 4 overall pick.

4. Tim Alderson, rhp
Scouts question his stuff and delivery, don't love him as much as fans do.

5. Jose Tabata, of
Remains an enigma, and questions about his physique and true age linger.

6. Gorkys Hernandez, of
Won't play center with McCutchen in Pittsburgh, and his bat doesn't profile on a corner.

7. Rudy Owens, lhp
28th-round draft-and-follow used solid stuff, savvy to fashion 32-inning scoreless streak.

8. Zack Von Rosenberg, rhp
Unsigned sixth-round pick had borderline first-round talent.

9. Robbie Grossman, of
2008 sixth-rounder who signed for $1 million is having just a so-so first full season.

10. Starling Marte, of
Previously unknown Dominican has hit .345 with 16 steals in first month in low Class A.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

That's not surprising to me. A lot of the guys in A ball have just recently come on, and the Pirates don't have many power arms (at least not at higher levels in the minor yet) or guys who are going to hit 40+ HRs, which are things that tend to get you noticed as an elite prospect. Plus it really hurts the system with Cutch graduating since he was a top-25 guy.

I would bet that one or two rise from the bunch and get near "elite" status, but other than that, those big-time elite guys are going to have to be drafted or signed internationally because we simply didn't have the big-time players to get big-time prospects.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

You aren't surprised to read what he though of some of these prospects? That's what got me...

I've never thought highly of Gorkys Hernandez and have believed that he's nothing more than a 4th outfielder at best, so his comments about him didn't surprise me. I was a bit surprised to read that scouts aren't as high on Alderson... Some in the Pirates management (NH included) would have you believe he's going to be an ace level pitcher. I didn't realize Tabata had some weight issues either (at least that's what it sounds like).

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Eh, I'm not too surprised. Most of the guys they traded for are single A players at the moment, and just raw potential. Just because they aren't highly ranked prospects at the moment, doesn't mean they won't be. That's the purpose of the farm system, to develop. I am surprised by the way they dismiss Alderson. As far as I knew, he was a highly touted prospect in San Fran.

It's not like we were going to get opposing teams best prospects (on paper) trading Jack Wilson and Adam LaRoche.

I'm very pleased with what the Pirates have in the farm, but I do still have questions about whether or not they can develop the talent they have, since it's been a problem in the past. I don't quite know if I buy their coaching at the developmental level.

The point is, they have two "sure things" in Cutch and Alvarez, and a solid group of pitchers. And then a ton of depth to use to build around them. I'm not surprised that they rank our farm system lower right now, since it's right after the trades. Wait a year or two, to see how these players progress, then see where we're ranked.