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  • Leftos
    NBA 2K AI Software Engineer
    • Oct 2010
    • 1255

    #1

    Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

    Hello everyone. I haven't been around in a while, and I do apologize for that. I'm stopping by because I really enjoyed the Player Roles discussion and saw a lot of great feedback, so I wanted to start a new thread to gather your feedback and ideas on team building & trade logic. I know a lot of you have made your points repeatedly on various threads, but I needed one place where we can get everything in.

    Just some pointers, if you're going to post your feedback:
    - Saying "I hate this" or "this makes no sense" without any explanation doesn't help. I've felt that posts that had a mere mention of a trade and then "'nough said" are the least helpful of all, as that gives me no idea as to what the state the teams were in and whether the trade actually made sense. If it doesn't make sense in the current NBA, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense in your save's world. As pieces move around and your world diverges from the NBA, things that might fail in the real world might apply perfectly to your save. I'm not saying this as a cop-out. I'm saying that before you post, look at the movement in depth. Is a team trying dump salaries because it's looking to rebuild? Did the trade cause a logjam in a position or cause a position to become highly understaffed? The more factors you bring up in your post (even if it's 10 things that add up to the trade not making sense), the more helpful it will be.
    - "X team would never do this". Think twice before saying that. We've seen trades and movements by GMs that had us pulling our hair out, we're all fans and we've been befuddled at times. If we made the AI amazing and the Pistons made moves that actually benefited them wouldn't that make the game extremely unrealistic? (Just kidding, but boy I wish I knew what Dumars is thinking.) Don't think in a box. When building team logic, you can't build 30 different logics and update them ever year. You have to build 1 logic that's dynamic. That can support the weirdest of custom teams. That can support any team situation. So try to think outside the box. Forget about what team it is, and think of whether that move benefited the team (or not) in the world currently existing in your save.
    - This is not a thread to discuss user control and commissioner features. I want us to discuss how to improve the logic. If you feel that we wouldn't need to have this discussion if only you controlled the league, fine, you don't have to participate. But there are people that want a living league that acts on its own around them, and I want NBA 2K to move towards that goal tangibly (which is why I was hired to work on the modes and AI).
    - Do not assume you know how the logic works. Simply put, I made enough of those assumptions myself before I joined VC, and most of them were proven wrong. If you're going to make a suggestion, do not make it a "take this out". Write in detail why you want to see something, instead.

    Now that all the disclaimers are out of the way, feel free to reply. I sincerely hope this thread becomes a hub of constructive discussion, and that hateful posts are kept to a minimum.

    And a final note: Around this time last year I was planning on creating a modding tool that would expand NBA 2K's franchise feature. There's an improptu podcast over at the NLSC where JaoSming and I were discussing all the features and expanded logic we would add. Knowing what I know now, it's a humbling experience to come in and see how much goes into the logic over how teams trade and build their rosters. I'm not saying its perfect, far from it. But there is logic there, and it's an attempt to have something that works for any team, any league, any point in time and any situation, which is why I insisted that you do not base the discussion on what one of the 30 NBA teams would do today. Small things might seem simple enough to solve. "This makes no sense, I should make sure that it never happens." It's not that simple though, more often than not. Based on all the parameters that go into the AI making a move, it might've made perfect sense.

    And with all that, being able to be here, at the VC studio and work directly on the logic that goes into everything that happens, makes me very excited. Which once again, brings me to what I'm here for. I want to hear your ideas from basic groundwork on how teams should look to build themselves up, to very specific details on what should make a trade work or not work.
    Last edited by Leftos; 01-27-2014, 12:57 AM.
    Eleftherios "Leftos" Aslanoglou
    NBA 2K AI Software Engineer
    Visual Concepts Entertainment / 2K Sports
    Novato, CA, USA
  • Smirkin Dirk
    All Star
    • Oct 2008
    • 5179

    #2
    Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

    Firstly, I'd like to say allowing 30 team control is a necessary safety valve, but I wont mention this as the OP said not to

    1. Each team should have an overall team goal. As we know, very few teams are trying to win the championship. Some teams seek to tank. Some to make the playoffs. Some to shed salary. These overall goals should decide what types of moves a team would make. A team wanting to win it all might trade for Marion, a team looking to tank wouldnt. Here's a potential list.

    Compete for 'ship.
    Compete for playoffs.
    Get younger.
    Get picks.
    Shed salary.

    Combine some (OKC, for example, are trying to compete and shedding salary)

    2. Build aggression levels into owner/GM behaviour. An aggressive owner/GM makes lots of moves, a timid one doesnt.

    To be honest Leftos, this is hard as we dont really know how the 2K roster logic work. What program allows LBJ to sign for Philly for 24m over 3 years? What program allows Boston to trade for Chris Paul when they already have Rondo, and then bench Paul?
    2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

    Comment

    • Leftos
      NBA 2K AI Software Engineer
      • Oct 2010
      • 1255

      #3
      Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

      Originally posted by Hot Kidd
      To be honest Leftos, this is hard as we dont really know how the 2K roster logic work. What program allows LBJ to sign for Philly for 24m over 3 years? What program allows Boston to trade for Chris Paul when they already have Rondo, and then bench Paul?
      Wouldn't Dumars do that? :P

      Joking aside, I'm not saying there are not blatant lapses (e.g. Chris Paul to CLE and Kyrie benched). I'm looking to kill those first, just like Patch 3 killed the most blatant cases of unrealistic Player Roles expectations. Again, even having the most obvious things mentioned one more time in this thread doesn't hurt, if it's going to act as a resource for me moving forward.
      Eleftherios "Leftos" Aslanoglou
      NBA 2K AI Software Engineer
      Visual Concepts Entertainment / 2K Sports
      Novato, CA, USA

      Comment

      • Smirkin Dirk
        All Star
        • Oct 2008
        • 5179

        #4
        Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

        Originally posted by Leftos
        Again, even having the most obvious things mentioned one more time in this thread doesn't hurt, if it's going to act as a resource for me moving forward.
        Fair call. I only mentioned them to ascertain if it was a glitch or a flaw in the existing logic. If its a flaw, perhaps we'd need an insight into why these errors occur, then feedback could be more constructive.

        I have another suggestion. As well as the roster goals I outlined previously, each team should have a roster profile. A few selections could be star based (OKC), athletic (Miami), shooters (Portland), even spread (Denver), big (I cant think of anyone!), defensive (Indiania).

        Perhaps rather than give each team a desired roster profile that has one single characteristic, use the slider system to give it some room to move.

        Basically, roster AI seems random.

        Give it some systems which give teams an identity and instill teams with a sense of logic and direction. Ive outlined 2 above that I feel would add an overall AI logic template.
        2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

        Comment

        • SuperNova854
          Pro
          • May 2007
          • 773

          #5
          Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

          Could this possibly help? If a team has a bunch of young guys, and it's obvious they are rebuilding, would it be possible for that team to somehow be labeled in the rebuilding process, therefore making so they don't trade for older players etc? And vice-versa. If a team is obviously in win-now mode, have it where they will trade young assets/picks in order to get better players that fit in with their play style in order to compete for a championship. Or another idea a team like the Celtics for example who have a ton of picks the next few years could end up packaging all that young talent like they did before to compete for a title? Obviously you would have to add in all real draft picks for this to work. Team's could have their own version of personality badges like player's do. They would change at the end of every season by how their team finished the year before, the team's current roster, etc.

          Comment

          • SPRINGS03
            MVP
            • Aug 2012
            • 1202

            #6
            Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

            Originally posted by Hot Kidd
            Firstly, I'd like to say allowing 30 team control is a necessary safety valve. . .

            Sorry but this. Needs to be said, and should be noted. More control is important and in high demand.

            BUT, as for an idea for better trade logic. We need things that are more based on team need, and not just an overall rating. Teams need to factor things like, position, age, size, based on what their team has and needs before making a trade. Also, certain teams that are known for going into rebuilding mode should make trades accordingly. Just something to possibly factor in.

            Maybe something that could help the logic is a team profile type of thing for each team. So some teams have goals of going to the finals and adding good pieces to their roster but mostly role player types, others are rebuilding and hoping to add young talent, etc.
            Last edited by SPRINGS03; 01-27-2014, 02:24 AM.

            Comment

            • Smirkin Dirk
              All Star
              • Oct 2008
              • 5179

              #7
              Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

              Originally posted by SuperNova854
              Team's could have their own version of personality badges like player's do. They would change at the end of every season by how their team finished the year before, the team's current roster, etc.
              Yep this is what I was touching on. Your idea is great; give teams a personality badge.

              Giving AI teams a sense of purpose (contending, rebuilding etc) is a must. At the moment it feels just random.

              If teams have no overall purpose, make an allowance for that (Sacramento for instance)
              2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

              Comment

              • Smirkin Dirk
                All Star
                • Oct 2008
                • 5179

                #8
                Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                Originally posted by SPRINGS03

                Maybe something that could help the logic is a team profile type of thing for each team. So some teams have goals of going to the finals and adding good pieces to their roster but mostly role player types, others are rebuilding and hoping to add young talent, etc.
                Yep this seems pretty popular so far.
                2022 'Plug and play' sim roster (XBX)

                Comment

                • Melbournelad
                  MVP
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 1559

                  #9
                  Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                  Originally posted by Hot Kidd
                  Firstly, I'd like to say allowing 30 team control is a necessary safety valve, but I wont mention this as the OP said not to

                  1. Each team should have an overall team goal. As we know, very few teams are trying to win the championship. Some teams seek to tank. Some to make the playoffs. Some to shed salary. These overall goals should decide what types of moves a team would make. A team wanting to win it all might trade for Marion, a team looking to tank wouldnt. Here's a potential list.

                  Compete for 'ship.
                  Compete for playoffs.
                  Get younger.
                  Get picks.
                  Shed salary.

                  Combine some (OKC, for example, are trying to compete and shedding salary)

                  2. Build aggression levels into owner/GM behaviour. An aggressive owner/GM makes lots of moves, a timid one doesnt.


                  To be honest Leftos, this is hard as we dont really know how the 2K roster logic work. What program allows LBJ to sign for Philly for 24m over 3 years? What program allows Boston to trade for Chris Paul when they already have Rondo, and then bench Paul?
                  This. All teams should have a distinct purpose for their season. And I think emphasis needs to be placed on which teams are buyers/sellers for that season. For example we see in real life the Bulls unloading Deng to avoid the repeater tax in the future, the 76ers shopping Young and Hawes since they are likely too old for the rebuilding effort, the Magic shopping Afflalo for the same reason, the Raptors were going to blow it up (before their unexpected turn around) etc.

                  And it would be very impressive if teams could dynamically adapt their team building as their results surprise and they either over or under achive. For example the recent Melo trade rumors. The Knicks would never have expected the need for their front office to ever consider this before the season started, yet now if they continue to underperform and are 5-10 games under .500 when the trade deadline arrives, may have to sell Melo for 50 cents on the dollar or risk losing him for nothing in free agency.

                  Also as Hot Kidd said, priorities should vary from GM to GM. For example the Gortat trade before season was a move Grunfeld made just to save his job (contract expiring this year) and make the playoffs. It didn't necessairly benefit the Wizards long term.
                  Last edited by Melbournelad; 01-27-2014, 04:32 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Raw Energy
                    Pro
                    • Jul 2011
                    • 676

                    #10
                    Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                    is this for just association or my career as well.

                    I would say having an option to search for particular styles.

                    Etc if i want an Athletic, quick release, and whatever type of shooter u want (spt up, dead eye, catch n shoot, etc) to add to my team I can select a number of sliders than it will show those who match or come close to it in trade options.

                    If i want lengthy defenders who might not be athletic at all positions i should be able to pick a numerous of options that shows players who match or come close.

                    etc.. high d awareness --- length-- size-- than type of D player u want. interceptor, eraser, high d low post, d anchor, etc

                    If your the star player on the team the GM should fine some one who can compliment you wether your d player looking to add another d player who skill set diff from yours or an offense player in post who want another big but one who can face up or wing player who keep d at bay with lethal j etc.

                    Comment

                    • Raw Energy
                      Pro
                      • Jul 2011
                      • 676

                      #11
                      Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                      At beginning of season if i was last in blocks the year before. The team should be looking to add a shot blocker to help increase that stat.

                      Basically if your last an category your Gm should be looking to improve in that area only if your in 20-30 in ranking.

                      Add specific type of players each team is looking for at each position. Might be a coach thing or could be an owner thing as well.

                      Ex:

                      Pg-- pass first, interceptor, spot up shooter
                      sg--scoring, microwave, finsher
                      sf-- point forward, 3pt specialist, catch n shoot
                      pf -- rebounding, hustle, d-anchor
                      c -- back to basket, eraser, bruiser

                      if a player at the position as one of the three or all 3 than the GM should be looking to add that player if necessary wether trade FA or draft.

                      So teams look for certain players ant not just get highest overall.

                      I think it would also help give each team unique identities in their own right.

                      Comment

                      • El_Poopador
                        MVP
                        • Oct 2013
                        • 2624

                        #12
                        Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                        Originally posted by Melbournelad
                        This. All teams should have a distinct purpose for their season. And I think emphasis needs to be placed on which teams are buyers/sellers for that season. For example we see in real life the Bulls unloading Deng to avoid the repeater tax in the future, the 76ers shopping Young and Hawes since they are likely too old for the rebuilding effort, the Magic shopping Afflalo for the same reason, the Raptors were going to blow it up (before their unexpected turn around) etc.

                        And it would be very impressive if teams could dynamically adapt their team building as their results surprise and they either over or under achive. For example the recent Melo trade rumors. The Knicks would never have expected the need for their front office to ever consider this before the season started, yet now if they continue to underperform and are 5-10 games under .500 when the trade deadline arrives, may have to sell Melo for 50 cents on the dollar or risk losing him for nothing in free agency.

                        Also as Hot Kidd said, priorities should vary from GM to GM. For example the Gortat trade before season was a move Grunfeld made just to save his job (contract expiring this year) and make the playoffs. It didn't necessairly benefit the Wizards long term.
                        this. i dont think any team enters the season planning on tanking. but if thats the way their season goes then they may decide to start rebuilding and trading away some older assets for draft picks. i dont think having a goal of "clear some cap space" should be introduced at the start of the season. the trade/free agency logic should be dynamic throughout the season. if a team is at say .500 around all-star break maybe they decide to try for a big move to make a playoff push. if they are not doing well then try to clear some cap space to make room for a big free agent in the off season. it should also take into account the coach and gm (mike dantoni is a very different coach than mike brown so the same players wouldnt have the same impact).

                        try to incorporate chemistry into who gms look to sign. if i have a drive and kick pg i may not want a slashing scoring sg. instead i may want a spot up shooter to be ready for the kick out. again this should also be dependent on the coaching style.

                        Comment

                        • LorenzoDC
                          MVP
                          • Sep 2010
                          • 1857

                          #13
                          Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                          One other small idea about how teams value players: teams should take account for how a player's personality fits with the rest of the team's mix.

                          As a user, I avoid or place less value on unpredictable players and players who are not loyal. I can trade them to AI teams who only "see" the OVR along with age and potential. Those AI teams may already have chemistry problems or may not be able to give the guy I'm dumping the role he wants, so they are acquiring a headache. That's bad logic for AI teams based on the actual team value of players with these kinds of personalities.

                          It would be great if CPU teams could perceive this in making decisions about their rosters, trades, FA signing, all in line with what they are trying to build, as other commenters have noted.

                          This would mean that the logic that computes market value and assigns stars would have to be dynamic by team rather than static based on a formula that crunches player stats.
                          Last edited by LorenzoDC; 01-27-2014, 09:55 AM.

                          Comment

                          • 13CB55
                            Rookie
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 147

                            #14
                            Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                            english isnt my first language, so bear with me thanks in advance that you will give us a chance to talk to you guys.

                            One problem people have is that the game isnt factoring in injury concerns especially in connection with a huge amount of salary tied to such a player.
                            i dont now if you guys want to ( are allowed to ) "expose" a player like amare in the game but it should be added somehow.

                            player rating in trades shouldnt just be about overall.
                            and im not saying that it is that way trades work, i really think theres alot of work behind it, but its just how i feel it is when playing the game.

                            havent played mygm in a while, but when i did i played with the nuggets and nate robinson is so valuable on the market because of his 81 overall and his low salary. there is just no way, that he and hickson would net you cousins or m.gasol out of the box on the first day in your mygm file.

                            players should have labels like journey man, role player, star player, huge talent, future star, cornerstone,...
                            of course all those labels should be able to change over the years. a role player can become a star or cornerstone if his stats are off the charts or the other way around.

                            a 81 overall role player/journey man would lose some value and teams would instead prefer to keep a 75 rated huge talent/future star.

                            --

                            also teams should react more to injuries. never really saw that a team trades for a new pg, if their man is down for months and no good back up in sight...instead a new forward is coming... especially in mycareer ... its driving me nuts

                            Comment

                            • GR5Noles
                              MVP
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 1255

                              #15
                              Re: Team Building and Trade Logic: Your Ideas

                              Like others were saying, it would be a good idea to have specific goals for a team based on their roster which would influence their trade logic. However, going one step further, I think that there should be franchise goals/history that influence a team's trade logic.

                              Teams like the Lakers and the Knicks aren't big into building a team up from the draft. Rather, they're always in a "win now" mentaliy, wheeling and dealing or using their influence in the free agent market. I think that should be reflected a little more in the game. Let's be honest, if LeBron leaves South Beach, for whatever reason, he's not going to Philadelphia. He's either going home or heading to one of the major markets in the league. It would definitely be interesting to see teams like the Knicks or Lakers perform differently in the trade market than other teams. They should be the ones pulling off the blockbuster trades that people will be talking about for years, not the Timberwolves or the Bucks. If something like that could be added to the logic, I'd see it as a nice touch.

                              Comment

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