I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

[WISports]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I think a pass meter, as well as the shot meter, is a bad idea. When I'm playing, I don't wanna have to look at a tiny meter every time I pass or shoot.

[Vni]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

The meter in both case is just there to help you get a feel for it. Once you're used to it you definately will want to take it off.

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I think a pass meter, as well as the shot meter, is a bad idea. When I'm playing, I don't wanna have to look at a tiny meter every time I pass or shoot.

I believe a lot of stuff takes away from what I believe is most important; strategy. Who wants to lose to someone who has no general knowledge of how to execute on either side of the floor, yet mastered iso-motion, shooting, and (the suggestion of) passing timings?

The same is true on the other end of the floor. No one wants to lose to someone who realized an unrealistic defense scheme just happens to be the most effective, along with the mastering of double teaming, and camping passing lanes, due to the animation system not being so kind to the passing game.

All of the "skill" required on the user's end just opens up the floodgates for cheese, and ultimately, this "game within the game" stuff distracts from what a simulation of a sport should be imo.

A player should be able to win games without requiring general competence of all of these gameplay mechanics, as long as they know the game of basketball. Right now, that isn't really the case, and adding on top of that certainly isn't helping anyone.

[El_Poopador]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I believe a lot of stuff takes away from what I believe is most important; strategy. Who wants to lose to someone who has no general knowledge of how to execute on either side of the floor, yet mastered iso-motion, shooting, and (the suggestion of) passing timings?

The same is true on the other end of the floor. No one wants to lose to someone who realized an unrealistic defense scheme just happens to be the most effective, along with the mastering of double teaming, and camping passing lanes, due to the animation system not being so kind to the passing game.

All of the "skill" required on the user's end just opens up the floodgates for cheese, and ultimately, this "game within the game" stuff distracts from what a simulation of a sport should be imo.

A player should be able to win games without requiring general competence of all of these gameplay mechanics, as long as they know the game of basketball. Right now, that isn't really the case, and adding on top of that certainly isn't helping anyone.

Two words: Swing pass.

Right now, that is nonexistent in NBA 2k, because you cannot choose the speed of your pass, nor the animation that plays out when you choose to pass (overhead, chest pass, etc.). And since those play a huge roll in finding the open man in the NBA, I think it would be very beneficial to have the ability to choose the speed of your pass.

Personally, I think it should be the opposite; if you just tap the pass button, you throw a zippy pass. The longer you hold it, the slower/more floaty the pass is. If you're throwing a quick pass, you obviously want the ball to get there as quickly as possible, which is why I think it should be mapped to a tap of the button. If you want to lob the ball, you don't need it to be super quick, so you have more time to hold the button.

Just my thoughts on it. I definitely would like to see some way to control the speed/arc of the pass, though.

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

Two words: Swing pass.

Right now, that is nonexistent in NBA 2k, because you cannot choose the speed of your pass, nor the animation that plays out when you choose to pass (overhead, chest pass, etc.). And since those play a huge roll in finding the open man in the NBA, I think it would be very beneficial to have the ability to choose the speed of your pass.

Personally, I think it should be the opposite; if you just tap the pass button, you throw a zippy pass. The longer you hold it, the slower/more floaty the pass is. If you're throwing a quick pass, you obviously want the ball to get there as quickly as possible, which is why I think it should be mapped to a tap of the button. If you want to lob the ball, you don't need it to be super quick, so you have more time to hold the button.

Just my thoughts on it. I definitely would like to see some way to control the speed/arc of the pass, though.

How about, having a variety of passes? And the "right" pass is contextual to a player's passing rating? The "right" pass should always occur if the lane is there. No? If not, get better passers on the floor.

That in itself makes the game more-so about personnel and not about user-skill. You shouldn't be able to wing-it with some scrub guys out there because you perfected the game's mechanics. It almost defeats the purpose of having certain players on the court outside of "user-skill" related ratings such as, blocking, stealing, and shooting.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

A player should be able to win games without requiring general competence of all of these gameplay mechanics, as long as they know the game of basketball. Right now, that isn't really the case, and adding on top of that certainly isn't helping anyone.

Knowing the game of basketball would mean you know you cant put the same touch on every pass. They already have to learn how to icon lead. They have to learn how to use the lob and bounce mod. The key to helping beginners is in the defensive settings. If someone who is new to the game but knows basketball tells their players to get back on defense it must significantly reduce cherry picking and lead passes at the cost of offensive rebounds.

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

Knowing the game of basketball would mean you know you cant put the same touch on every pass. They already have to learn how to icon lead. They have to learn how to use the lob and bounce mod. The key to helping beginners is in the defensive settings. If someone who is new to the game but knows basketball tells their players to get back on defense it must significantly reduce cherry picking and lead passes at the cost of offensive rebounds.

I believe this is unnecessary. The right pass should always occur given the given situation. Users should be more concerned about the odds of a pass being successful due to what the defense is allowing. Not, whether they can squeeze a pass based on their mastery of a game-play mechanic. The last thing I want is for players to hone more useless skills instead of actually constructing a feasible offense to use.

[El_Poopador]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

How about, having a variety of passes? And the "right" pass is contextual to a player's passing rating? The "right" pass should always occur if the lane is there. No? If not, get better passers on the floor.

That in itself makes the game more-so about personnel and not about user-skill. You shouldn't be able to wing-it with some scrub guys out there because you perfected the game's mechanics. It almost defeats the purpose of having certain players on the court outside of "user-skill" related ratings such as, blocking, stealing, and shooting.

I see what you're saying, but that's still relying too much on the game to make the right decision. It should be a combination of the user's decision-making and the player's ratings. And, like how there are different ratings for different shot types and distances, they can add in a rating for different pass types and distances (bounce pass short, bounce pass medium, bounce pass long, etc.) with each type of pass. That way, even if I make the 'right' pass, it can still end up being a bad pass if I try it with a player who isn't a good passer. I think that would satisfy both of us. It gives me the control of what kind of pass I want to throw without being able to throw any kind of pass with any player.

I believe this is unnecessary. The right pass should always occur given the given situation.

The key word is should. I've had a ton of times where I see an opening, but end up turning the ball over because the pass wasn't how I wanted to pass it. And it wasn't a question of ratings, but more of control. If we could rely on the code to make the pass I intend every time, then that would be fantastic. But until that day, the more options the better.

Users should be more concerned about the odds of a pass being successful due to what the defense is allowing. Not, whether they can squeeze a pass based on their mastery of a game-play mechanic. The last thing I want is for players to hone more useless skills instead of actually constructing a feasible offense to use.

I absolutely agree. But this is why we need the control to choose the type of pass we want to throw. Like I brought up before, the swing pass is an essential part of any basketball strategy. So if the defense leaves a man open in the corner, but the ball is on the other side of the floor, a few quick passes can lead to an open shot. But right now, that isn't possible.

[Sundown]

I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

Anytime you stack commands on a button you introduce a delay beacuse the system has to wait until your done to see if you tapped or held the button.

What if you activate the pass as soon as the button is let up? That would allow an instant response and allow you to preload for more zip. Its a common mechanic and at work we use something similar. Taps vs double taps is an issue though.

And if you roll to shot that can be a command for fake pass and shoot. Speaking of which, I wonder what fake pass is, now that left trigger B is used for flashy pass.

I sort of liked how flashy passes were hard to pull off with left trigger right stick.

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I see what you're saying, but that's still relying too much on the game to make the right decision. It should be a combination of the user's decision-making and the player's ratings. And, like how there are different ratings for different shot types and distances, they can add in a rating for different pass types and distances (bounce pass short, bounce pass medium, bounce pass long, etc.) with each type of pass. That way, even if I make the 'right' pass, it can still end up being a bad pass if I try it with a player who isn't a good passer. I think that would satisfy both of us. It gives me the control of what kind of pass I want to throw without being able to throw any kind of pass with any player.

I wouldn't say "relying on the game", but relying on who's on the floor. I find the passing rating to be generally useless, as I'm able to zip around passes to whoever in the half-court, and that's generally due to the plays I run, designed for floor spacing.

However, I know that a lot of players aren't shooting a pass from the strong-side for a weak-side corner three. For example, I remember Manu Ginobili executing a one-handed, skip pass from the strong corner to the weak corner. I would rather player ratings to not only determine that this pass is the executable, but also allow for it to land accurately as well. Not another user- mechanic that requires practice.

I want to practice plays, player rotations, and defensive schemes, not more button timings, iso and post moves. In the grand scheme, little touches like this shouldn't affect the outcome of a game.

[El_Poopador]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I wouldn't say "relying on the game", but relying on who's on the floor. I find the passing rating to be generally useless, as I'm able to zip around passes to whoever in the half-court, and that's generally due to the plays I run, designed for floor spacing.

However, I know that a lot of players aren't shooting a pass from the strong-side for a weak-side corner three. For example, I remember Manu Ginobili executing a one-handed, skip pass from the strong corner to the weak corner. I would rather player ratings to not only determine that this pass is the executable, but also allow for it to land accurately as well. Not another user- mechanic that requires practice.

I want to practice plays, player rotations, and defensive schemes, not more button timings, iso and post moves. In the grand scheme, little touches like this shouldn't affect the outcome of a game.

I'm not saying that the outcome of the pass should only be determined by the user input. I'm only saying the type of pass should be. So if I tried the pass you described above with someone who has a low pass rating, I would obviously want it to be off target. But by the same token, I should be able to decide whether I want to throw a bullet pass into the paint if I see a small opening, or a floaty, lob pass if my big man is being fronted in the post.

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I see what you're saying, but that's still relying too much on the game to make the right decision. It should be a combination of the user's decision-making and the player's ratings. And, like how there are different ratings for different shot types and distances, they can add in a rating for different pass types and distances (bounce pass short, bounce pass medium, bounce pass long, etc.) with each type of pass. That way, even if I make the 'right' pass, it can still end up being a bad pass if I try it with a player who isn't a good passer. I think that would satisfy both of us. It gives me the control of what kind of pass I want to throw without being able to throw any kind of pass with any player.

The key word is should. I've had a ton of times where I see an opening, but end up turning the ball over because the pass wasn't how I wanted to pass it. And it wasn't a question of ratings, but more of control. If we could rely on the code to make the pass I intend every time, then that would be fantastic. But until that day, the more options the better.

Passing windows can open and close within a matter of seconds, if not less. A player's passing rating "should" determine how well they can thread a pass, regardless of what type is executed.

The rating should tie in how successful a pass is made period. If 2K has to have a ball clip through some arms, and feet, so be-it, as long as the game has established rules on what is an open pass relative to the defense. More than likely, that shouldn't be the case, as I imagine player animations are already bound to specific rules anyway.

[Vni]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I wouldn't say "relying on the game", but relying on who's on the floor. I find the passing rating to be generally useless, as I'm able to zip around passes to whoever in the half-court, and that's generally due to the plays I run, designed for floor spacing.

However, I know that a lot of players aren't shooting a pass from the strong-side for a weak-side corner three. For example, I remember Manu Ginobili executing a one-handed, skip pass from the strong corner to the weak corner. I would rather player ratings to not only determine that this pass is the executable, but also allow for it to land accurately as well. Not another user- mechanic that requires practice.

I want to practice plays, player rotations, and defensive schemes, not more button timings, iso and post moves. In the grand scheme, little touches like this shouldn't affect the outcome of a game.

Off course it should affect the outcome of a game... it's not chess man. There is a chess aspect to basketball but user's skill should play a big part in a winning a match.

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

I'm not saying that the outcome of the pass should only be determined by the user input. I'm only saying the type of pass should be. So if I tried the pass you described above with someone who has a low pass rating, I would obviously want it to be off target. But by the same token, I should be able to decide whether I want to throw a bullet pass into the paint if I see a small opening, or a floaty, lob pass if my big man is being fronted in the post.

I believe the type of pass is irrelevant if the context of the situation is ambiguous. The timing of the pass is more important. Ratings should determine the type of pass if so, since elite passers can generally hit their targets in such situations, no?

[luda06]

Re: I think I would have preferred a pass meter over a shooting meter.

Off course it should affect the outcome of a game... it's not chess man. There is a chess aspect to basketball but user's skill should play a big part in a winning a match.

Basketball is more of a metal sport than anything else. Play smart and you should win the majority of your games. Work smart, not hard. Adding more mechanics is working hard to a goal that is achievable for someone who knows how to gain the same result with something much simpler.