Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

[RAPH]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

I agree. Re-read my posts with a sarcastic tone.



They did that too, actually.



I agree. I remember Darvin Ham well. Stauffer or whoever did the 04 Pistons ratings obviously never saw him. Pistons dunks start at the 40 second mark.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c_bmCo45zXY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Initially I was giving Stauffer and 2K praise this year for redoing the ratings... I thought the historic scale was a good idea... I still do...

But it's just frustrating how certain things are just implemented lazily... like the complete oversight of Ham's dunk rating...

Also... I read on reddit today, that Hasheem Thabeet has a 97 block rating, while Hakeem Olajuwon only has a 87... lol

I personally haven't checked to verify this yet... but if that's true then the idea of that is just laughable when you look at their per 36 min averages... I mean, what kind of historic scale is that supposed to be? lol

[DC]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

This is the issue.

For some reason, 2K changed the dunk commands this year.

Up: Two handed Dunk
Left/Right: Left/Right handed dunk
Away: Reverse Dunk

I HATE that everyone has to have a two handed dunk in their package when everyone that dunks doesn't dunk with two hands. Take Will Bynum, he does the basic leaning side tomahawk for just about every NBA dunk he does, so I now have to give him a two handed dunk?

This is the problem. If your dunk rating is high enough for you to dunk (35 this year) and you have been assigned one handed dunks ONLY and no two handed dunks, you will face issues dunking when you input the UP Dunk Stick command.

I tested this out with Pierre Jackson and for him to be able to dunk in ALL directions, he had to be equipped with a two handed dunk so that he could dunk when I pressed up on the stick.

Long winded, I know, sorry. Hope it made sense

[BBallcoach]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

I dunked with him on a fastbreak the other night.

[JackyRocks96]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Initially I was giving Stauffer and 2K praise this year for redoing the ratings... I thought the historic scale was a good idea... I still do...

But it's just frustrating how certain things are just implemented lazily... like the complete oversight of Ham's dunk rating...

Also... I read on reddit today, that Hasheem Thabeet has a 97 block rating, while Hakeem Olajuwon only has a 87... lol

I personally haven't checked to verify this yet... but if that's true then the idea of that is just laughable when you look at their per 36 min averages... I mean, what kind of historic scale is that supposed to be? lol

Because it isn't nuanced properly and not researched adequately. You can't just take blocks per 36 minutes. You would have to actually look at first of all how many blocks led to a posession change because what is the point of a block if you are just giving up an offensive rebound? You than have to look at how many per cent of the shots thrown up he actually blocked. Hell there are probably 20 guys around in the olden days who blocked 20 shots per game but that was when teams took 20 shots per game more than today. You have to account for that. You also have to account for the fact that the 3 point line wasn't introduced for quite some time so most offense would happen at the rim, again inflating block ratings simply because, as can be seen by several stats, the frequency of blocks in the paint is higher than blocks on long 2's or 3's and since the NBA moved to long distance shooting from around the middle of the 90's again you have to adjust the calculation to take that into account. How much of a force was he percentage wise in his time in the league, how much of a force was he compared to his teammates.

Also what is the point of 36 minutes ratings? Charles Barkley said it best in one of his rants on analytics: there is a reason for it if a player does not play 36 minutes. You can not just do math and say: oh okay this guy played 44 minutes per game so we gonna adjust it to 36 minutes or this guy played 2 minutes per game. There is a reason why the guy stayed out there for 44 minutes or why he never got more than 2.

Furthermore the whole overall rating is flawed. Realistically MJ would probably be a 90 or something. Nobody, I repeat, nobody is better than a 90. Anything beyond 90 happens for a guy like MJ every 40 games or so. Those 10% is something nobody can reach on a consistent level. Nobody is that good. That would mean you are basically absolutely perfect in several categories. If I'd have to say someone is above a 90 it would probably be the Big O in his heyday. According to stats and film he did everything. Score more than 30 a game and nearly no turnovers, double digit dimes, double digit rebounds, probably a couple of blocks, a couple of steals. And even in his heyday he only shot above 50% a couple of times. MJ was good but he never managed 10 rebounds. He never managed 10 assists (I'm talking on the season average). His best season was 88-89. 8 Rebounds, 8 Dimes, 32 points shooting above 50%. That's the only year he should be a 90+ if that. Now Lebron you could argue is more versatile... but only when it comes to passing. 7 or 8 rebounds are actually expected from someone his size and weight. The only year he should be a 90+ should be his last championship year in Miami. Over 50% from the field, over 40 % from 3, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 26 points.

NOBODY is a 99. Nobody has been or ever will be. I don't care how good they are. A player rated 99 is someone who basically does nothing wrong on the field, scores a third or more of his teams points while shooting in the 60's and at least 50 from 3, grabs 10 or more boards, dimes 10 or more times, grabs 2-3 steals, blocks 3 or more shots and nails 95% from the line. That is a 99. There hasn't been a player like that EVER. Not for a season, I doubt even for half a season.

That's why there is no point in an overall rating. For all I care give them an A or whatever. But the actual rating should be the individual ratings and you select the player you go for according to them.

Now with that solved it would be a lot easier to weigh certain aspects of a players game. You could take a look at what one player was able to accomplish in one season and say: this is the pinnacle. No one did what he did better than him. Accordingly you could accurately rate the legends not overall but for the year of their classic team. Kenny Smith wasn't the Jet anymore when Houston won their second title... he was old and slow but still had a killer 3 etc. and accordingly you could fix the current players because you can rate them not on what they have done over the last 10 years but what they did the last season. You can compare that to the accurately historical achievements and because the small ratings would matter more (as you don't see the overall rating anyway) you could actually make players play like themselves instead of boosting some ratings to get them to what people expect them to have.

In that system Kobe wouldn't be an 85. He hasn't played a full season in 2 years and the games he did play he was attrocious. So he would probably be rated around a 72 given that you would have to give him a serious knock in offensive consistency, offensive IQ, passing, speed, getting seperating, agility etc. He is also not considered elite from long range because his stroke has looked dead when he played and he was never someone to take many 3's so his 30% from deep have to be seriously chopped down due to the lack of shots. He would also not be elite inside anymore because his body can not take the punishment. What he probably would be still good at would be defending, rebounding for his position, passing IQ, recognizing mismatches (smart player) and an elite shooter of the deep 2 and fade away, if you can get him inside.

Those ratings are just to please some fanboys and they have no historical accuracy apart from a few here and there otherwise John Stockton would be the only guy rated 99 in passing because he is the only player to average double digit dimes over 10+ years. Because yes you have to take into account the current season or the season the classic player is supposed to represent BUT you also have to take into account how long that player was able to play on that level because otherwise every guy who averaged 10 boards once in a single season would be considered at least a 90.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Yeah, but then how do you explain my issue with Lavine going for layups on wide open fast breaks?

I have yet to use LaVine, although I have been using Jerian Grant (69 Dunk) in MyTeam and can't recall any dunks.

Testing him right now, it seems like with 25 "Contact Dunk" the player won't even attempt a dunk if there is a chance at contact. Paint pounding in the half-court w/ LaVine I am 4-6 FG (all layups).

Conversely, with Wiggins I managed to get an Iso Dunk on the first play of the game. He has 40 Contact Dunk. I have three dunks with him (missed a 4th dunk) and have entered dunk animations with relative ease.

I have dunked with Arron Afflalo in MyTeam, despite weak dunk ratings.
Afflalo: 40 Driving, 35 Contact, 35 Standing
LaVine: 96 Driving, 25 Contact, 60 Standing

Contact seems to be the variable that matters here, and I'm willing to bet he'll start dunking (break or otherwise) if that bumps up.

[DC]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Rashidi, test something out for me if you have time.

What is the minimum Contact Dunk can be for someone to even THINK about dunking if there is a chance for contact. Maybe 35?

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Also... I read on reddit today, that Hasheem Thabeet has a 97 block rating, while Hakeem Olajuwon only has a 87... lol

The Free Agent pool did not get rating adjustments. I noticed this while counting the number of players in the NBA w/ 90+ ratings versus free agents who aren't even in the NBA. There were six 90+ blockers in the FA pool compared to 5 in the league right now (Dalembert signed w/ DAL to bring it to a 5/6 split).

I personally haven't checked to verify this yet... but if that's true then the idea of that is just laughable when you look at their per 36 min averages... I mean, what kind of historic scale is that supposed to be? lol

The HoF system was a bunch of marketing BS. One player has a 99 out of each attribute, wowee. For Blocks they decided it would be Russell, who played in an era where it wasn't even a recorded statistic. If anyone out there actually wants to argue the merits of Russell > Mutombo/Hakeem as far as shot blocking, I guess you found your man.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Rashidi, test something out for me if you have time.

What is the minimum Contact Dunk can be for someone to even THINK about dunking if there is a chance for contact. Maybe 35?

I raised LaVine to 30 Contact. I am playing a Euroleague team right now (Slow + missed shots = fastbreaks).

Went coast to coast like 80 feet for a dunk (the Euros are so slow the CPU couldn't even cheese itself into my path).

In the halfcourt I just got around a guys hip baseline and dunked. Looks like Contact was indeed the variable.

As far as the minimum I'm not testing to see if 26 works, as for editing (and 2K scaling) purposes 30 is fine.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Because it isn't nuanced properly and not researched adequately. You can't just take blocks per 36 minutes. You would have to actually look at first of all how many blocks led to a posession change because what is the point of a block if you are just giving up an offensive rebound? You than have to look at how many per cent of the shots thrown up he actually blocked.

Correct. Counting stats (Per game/minute) do not take pace into account. That is why it is important to use stats relative to possessions, which are readily available on Basketball-Reference.

You have to account for that. You also have to account for the fact that the 3 point line wasn't introduced for quite some time so most offense would happen at the rim

Correct. My personal cutoff for NBA comparison discussion is 1980 (i.e. the modern era) because the leagues were just too wildly different with regard to on-court rules, competitive balance, etc.

Also what is the point of 36 minutes ratings? Charles Barkley said it best in one of his rants on analytics: there is a reason for it if a player does not play 36 minutes. You can not just do math and say: oh okay this guy played 44 minutes per game so we gonna adjust it to 36 minutes or this guy played 2 minutes per game. There is a reason why the guy stayed out there for 44 minutes or why he never got more than 2.

FWIW Barkley is not a guy who should be quoted with regard to anything beyond elementary math. It has been shown that an NBA player's production doesn't drop as they get more minutes. The only thing that will drop is their touches (usage) by virtue of playing with more talented players.

Furthermore the whole overall rating is flawed. Realistically MJ would probably be a 90 or something. Nobody, I repeat, nobody is better than a 90.

Every person has their own idea of what OVR means to them. Your view would consider OVR as a pure average, as a player would need 99 in each attribute to have 99 OVR.

2K values it differently. John Stockton for instance was the greatest passer ever and a good perimeter defender. However, his blocks and Post defense were conversely lacking. His OVR should not be heavily penalized in those areas, because that is not where his player value comes from.

Moreover, OVR shouldn't be looked at as a "percentage" of perfection. It is a tool used to determine player value for the AI. 99 OVR = maximum value.

That's why there is no point in an overall rating. For all I care give them an A or whatever. But the actual rating should be the individual ratings and you select the player you go for according to them.

Unfortunately, the OVR rating is highly necessary for a video game since the AI bases the vast majority of it's in-season decision making off of it. Trade decisions, lineups, free agency, the draft, OVR plays a large role in making that experience as realistic as possible. The AI is not a HUMAN capable of advanced decision making.

In that system Kobe wouldn't be an 85. He hasn't played a full season in 2 years and the games he did play he was atrocious.

Kobe's rating has more to do with 2K appeasing fanboys, as you say.

[SonicMage]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Correct. Counting stats (Per game/minute) do not take pace into account. That is why it is important to use stats relative to possessions, which are readily available on Basketball-Reference.

I think she was referring more to Block %, also available on BBR, though frustratingly rounded to the tenths place.

FWIW Barkley is not a guy who should be quoted with regard to anything beyond elementary math. It has been shown that an NBA player's production doesn't drop as they get more minutes. The only thing that will drop is their touches (usage) by virtue of playing with more talented players.

Agreed, I don't even know why Barkley's views on analytics become so commonly used in arguments against it other than that he's one of the only ones so openly opposed to it. There are qualitative and quantitative metrics to measuring a player's value to a team, and both are important.

2K values it differently. John Stockton for instance was the greatest passer ever and a good perimeter defender. However, his blocks and Post defense were conversely lacking. His OVR should not be heavily penalized in those areas, because that is not where his player value comes from.

For your example, 2K's Stockton overall wouldn't be so heavily affected since blocks and post defense are weighted very low in the 2K overall formula for point guards. But at the same time, it also means John Wall doesn't get much bump in his overall for being an above standard shot-blocking PG.

Unfortunately, the OVR rating is highly necessary for a video game since the AI bases the vast majority of it's in-season decision making off of it. Trade decisions, lineups, free agency, the draft, OVR plays a large role in making that experience as realistic as possible. The AI is not a HUMAN capable of advanced decision making.

I wouldn't go about saying the overall is "necessary" for creating an NBA decision-making system, though the 2K games are certainly still heavily reliant on it.

[BluFu]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

First of all you also quoted... I'm a girl, thank you very much, so I would prefer not to be called somed guy. Secondly I was referring to his general size, athleticism, standing vertical jump and running vertical jump all of which have been on display and are actually on paper as well due to his parttaking in the draft combine. So the athleticism is definitely there.

Secondly I do not know whether you know it, but running around the court for that long jumping that high, that quickly as often as he does is simply a showcase of phenomenal athleticism on his part which again serves to demonstrate my point.

Thirdly he played 12!!! Games in China. How much do highlights of 12 games really count especially given that he is primarily a point guard and unless the offense is run in such a poor way as OKC did for the last couple of years and are called Russel Westbrook. even point guards with impressive dunk skills will hardly end up in a posterizing position.

Lastly I'd just like to add: why would he go for the complicated dunk? Maybe he is fine with the 2 points? Nobody asked 2k to give him all sorts of dunk packages. And tbh last season we have seen a new high in boneheadedness when it came to open dunks and layups so why would he make it special? Also it was his first pro season. The athletic gifts are there but like AD he will surely benefit from his first NBA season to get even more ripped.

Apologies..

The dunks in that video you posted were, for the most part, the basic dunks he does in game (not just in China, but Summer League as well). What he does in game and what he can do in game are very different things. Notice how many shots he was hitting in a row... everyone knows he's not a shooter. If this 'issue' was happening with Westbrook then that would be a problem worth looking at.

[evilandgood]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

I raised LaVine to 30 Contact. I am playing a Euroleague team right now (Slow + missed shots = fastbreaks).

Went coast to coast like 80 feet for a dunk (the Euros are so slow the CPU couldn't even cheese itself into my path).

In the halfcourt I just got around a guys hip baseline and dunked. Looks like Contact was indeed the variable.

As far as the minimum I'm not testing to see if 26 works, as for editing (and 2K scaling) purposes 30 is fine.

Weird. Several times I've had Lavine on a break, with no one near, and he would lay it up. Thanks for testing that out, though.

Bummed we can't edit rosters in MyGM. I guess I'm stuck with dunkless Lavine -_-

[JackyRocks96]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Alright I have to do that without quotes otherwise this is going to be a mess.

@BluFu: apologies accepted. Like I said I was not talking about him being a guy who will win the slamdunk contest but a guy who has the athletic tools and the stamina to posterize people. By Posterizing I mean dunk over people not necesarilly in a fancy way.

@Sonicmage:

I think she was referring more to Block %, also available on BBR, though frustratingly rounded to the tenths place.

Yes I am proposing that you need to weigh the different Block % (how many % of the team, how many % of total shots thrown up etc.) also look at the pace e.g. the posessions per team and then come up with a formula that gives you a precise value for how good of a blocker that person really is. The problem would be how to actually weigh those percentages and what not properly. If that guy played on a defensive heavy team how much do you weigh his contribution to the team in terms of percent? If the guy played in an era where 3 point shooting was not introduced or far from that it is today how much do you weigh the percentage of thrown up shots he blocked given that he might have had more chances for blocks but the number of shots he could have blocked was higher? Also how does that matter when we do not have a stat for how many shots that guy was in any position to block? Say you play against a team which rarely goes inside on a consistent basis and even then you only block 10%? Is that bad? Not if the player who scored the most points around the rim wasn't your guy to protect. So what they are trying to do is not that simple and how they are going about it is far too simplistic.

Agreed, I don't even know why Barkley's views on analytics become so commonly used in arguments against it other than that he's one of the only ones so openly opposed to it. There are qualitative and quantitative metrics to measuring a player's value to a team, and both are important.

+@ Rashidi: Because he makes sense. Analytics is one of many, many tools to decipher and opponents game. Yet a good coach used to be able to do that without the help of advanced stats and a lot of them still so. So it's more a convenience than an actual tool that makes it easier. The same goes for player analysis.Yes of course you might find value in role players and guys on the bench. But again coaches have been doing this before Analytics: Steve Kerr was valued precisely because of that. Pop has always found guys to compliment his roster that otherwise have been severely underrated by many others. So again it is a more sophisticated approach and definitely more convenient. When it comes to starters it just gets downright silly as Charles points out.

Anybody with one eye could have and would have seen what James Harden is capable of producing. That is why The Rockets got him. Analytics confirmed what they already knew. Same with Howard and Smith. A player who MIGHT have been overlooked otherwise would have been Patrick Beverly. But they corrected that problem and brought in a PG which everybody knew and valued for his skill: Ty Lawson.

Yes it's good that that tool is there but it's not magic. It helps you but like back in the day when teams started playing Moneyball in baseball, it's so seriously overhyped in basketball these days that you think: how on earth did they do it beforehand? What many people forget is that stats in those details are still not available for a game like Football (no not soccer, it's called Football) because nobody has figured out which stats are really important to the game and which aren't. And even though moneyball and analytics are so popular nowadays they can't tell you whoch stats are really important. You have to figure that out for yourself and how you weigh them. It's not magic.

I wouldn't go about saying the overall is "necessary" for creating an NBA decision-making system, though the 2K games are certainly still heavily reliant on it.

It relies on it for the same reason that readers usually start a riot when any of the online gaming magazines propose scraping rating in numbers up to 100 or out of 10 or whatever. Again, you don't need it because if you read the review you will form your own opinion of what is important and what isn't and thus give the game your own rating anyway.

@Rashidi:

Correct. My personal cutoff for NBA comparison discussion is 1980 (i.e. the modern era) because the leagues were just too wildly different with regard to on-court rules, competitive balance, etc.

That in my mind is too easy because even until 1990 the league was far from what it was today in terms of the game being 3 point heavy and consider what you would be able to get away with on defense, also handchecking etc. There is an argument to be made to just look at each decade, take the best in each category from each decade and compare them and rank them. Once you have that other players will fall into place because you will have come up with an actual formula to account for more posessions, less teams, 3 point line, different rules on defense etc.

FWIW Barkley is not a guy who should be quoted with regard to anything beyond elementary math. It has been shown that an NBA player's production doesn't drop as they get more minutes. The only thing that will drop is their touches (usage) by virtue of playing with more talented players.

I'm sorry but I will have to disagree. Maybe if you are talking about a guy who is already playing 20 or 25 minutes. Go below that and you will find what I'm saying. Yes they may get less touches but to actually get to 30 minutes a game their production would have to be up to par. There are players who average 2 points and 2 rebounds in 4 minutes. Times 9 (so you get to 36) and that guy would get 18 points and 18 boards. It's just not happening. Like I already pointed out when it comes to analytics: it's not magic. If that guy has been playing 20 minutes or so you can probably glimpse and tell what he will be able to do in double the time. It doesn't work for smaller timeframes and that is my argument here. It just doesn't because why would a guy who is capable of 18 and 18 get less touches when his teammates know he is, according to analytics, capable of scoring 18 points on around 70% shooting? Furthermore how would his numbers on defense decrease because of touches? He could still get 18 boards and 10 blocks.

Every person has their own idea of what OVR means to them. Your view would consider OVR as a pure average, as a player would need 99 in each attribute to have 99 OVR.

2K values it differently. John Stockton for instance was the greatest passer ever and a good perimeter defender. However, his blocks and Post defense were conversely lacking. His OVR should not be heavily penalized in those areas, because that is not where his player value comes from.

Moreover, OVR shouldn't be looked at as a "percentage" of perfection. It is a tool used to determine player value for the AI. 99 OVR = maximum value.

I think it should be looked at percentage of perfection. There is no point otherwise and otherwise there would be no reason why people do not want to see Lebron rated higher than MJ because to them it would mean: Lebron is better meaning a more perfect NBA player.

Unfortunately, the OVR rating is highly necessary for a video game since the AI bases the vast majority of it's in-season decision making off of it. Trade decisions, lineups, free agency, the draft, OVR plays a large role in making that experience as realistic as possible. The AI is not a HUMAN capable of advanced decision making.

Have to disagree here. It would be a sad A.I. in any sports game that would sign players purely based on their overall because you could end up with 5 Enes Kanters and that would suck (5 guys who might be big in scoring but blow in defense). The A.I. already needs to take into account several ratings if it was programmed in such a way to keep a team playing in a specific playstyle.

[ATLBrayden]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

The HoF system was a bunch of marketing BS. One player has a 99 out of each attribute, wowee. For Blocks they decided it would be Russell, who played in an era where it wasn't even a recorded statistic. If anyone out there actually wants to argue the merits of Russell > Mutombo/Hakeem as far as shot blocking, I guess you found your man.

Don't have anything really to add on the whole block debate (just watching you guys discuss it) but not every category has someone with a 99 rating. Unless I missed looking at a player in the game, there are certain ratings like speed that don't have a 99 rating (John Wall is the fastest with 97).

This is the issue.

For some reason, 2K changed the dunk commands this year.

Up: Two handed Dunk
Left/Right: Left/Right handed dunk
Away: Reverse Dunk

I HATE that everyone has to have a two handed dunk in their package when everyone that dunks doesn't dunk with two hands. Take Will Bynum, he does the basic leaning side tomahawk for just about every NBA dunk he does, so I now have to give him a two handed dunk?

This is the problem. If your dunk rating is high enough for you to dunk (35 this year) and you have been assigned one handed dunks ONLY and no two handed dunks, you will face issues dunking when you input the UP Dunk Stick command.

I tested this out with Pierre Jackson and for him to be able to dunk in ALL directions, he had to be equipped with a two handed dunk so that he could dunk when I pressed up on the stick.

Long winded, I know, sorry. Hope it made sense

Little confused, what you're saying is that for you to be able to pick directions other than a two handed dunk, you have to have a two handed dunk animation equipped?

EX: Player 1 has no two handed dunks animations, so you cannot select the specific direction you want to dunk.

Player 2 has a two handed dunk animation, you don't use it but you can now select which direction you want to dunk.

Also back on the thumbstick is a flashy dunk, it's not exclusively reverses, my myplayer has done tomahawks, cradles, etc with it.

[DC]

Re: Emmanuel Mudiay Dunk

Yea I tested it out with Pierre Jackson. Until I gave him Two Handed dunks, I wasn't able to dunk in all directions. (Practice Mode)