3 pointers better than midrange now?

[kobethelegend]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

You can't rely solely on the grades to assess which is a better shot. Shot grading is done on a sliding scale (so a 50% shot from 5 feet is a much lower grade than 50% from 30 feet.)

For a shooter with an equal 3PT and mid-range rating, a wide open 3 is higher % than a contested middie. But an open middie is still higher % than an open 3.

in theory this is correct. but is this correct in actual application in the game? cause from what we're seeing it isnt. Now the funny thing is, i figure this would happen with any basketball game created now. Why? because its trying to make it utterly obvious that the nba game has changed to 3's and layups/dunks. The mid range game is dying due to analytics. not dead but dying. So if you want to make your game LOOK like todays game. make the guys hit more 3's then mid range 2's and obviously make sure inside shots get high grades since they're closer. and bam you have just replicated today's nba. when there's another way to pull this off but do so realistically.

That is to make it like you said above in actual application not just theory. but if the defense forces me into LONG 2's my % drops drastically. or if i'm shooting with guys that dont have solid mid range games(which is MOST younger/ newer nba players... they didnt grow up in the kobe era.) doing this would still in the end simulate today's basketball but more realsitically. meaning the moment guys stop playing defense like today's teams(forcing long 2's, meets other offensive players that can shoot the midrange jumper. These guys will be money, lighting them up. Realistic sim ball TO ME is when i can DO anything i can in real life. but the counters are there to stop me or slow my progress. vs taking things away from me that i could actually do in real life to simulate real hoop. just my 3.5 cents

[kobethelegend]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

I think that's what you guys might be misunderstanding.

A higher grade does NOT necessarily mean a higher % shot when you're comparing shots in different ranges.

As an example, the grade to % chance mapping might look like this:
"A" at 5 feet = 80% shot
"A" in mid-range = 60% shot
"A" in 3PT range = 40% shot

makes sense

[RobTheGreat21]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

For me midranges are a lot easier to make than 3's. But 3's are a bit easier from before.

[UGJaelRose]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

I remember 2k3 mid ranges were completely broken and all you could do was dunk or shoot threes. This year looks like its back to a similar style. Gotta make sure you're shooting mid range with mid range shooters I guess.

[lelets]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

I tell my opinion about defence and contested/open shots.
Also, now about defense, it's too simple contest shots, with lt trigger, and it's not real that EVERY contested shots has a grade "f", that does means never hits one (or almost never maybe...)mid or 3 point range jumper contested.
In the real basketball players like, curry, harden, westbrook, anthony,lebron,kobe, and many other good offensive players, hit sometimes (who more often, who less...) contested mid range or 3 contested shots. Now, in 2k16 it's impossibile, always "F" grade, and always miss that shots, not real.
In offline, maybe with awareness and consistence sliders, it's possible to adjust this, but online it's absurd. If a shots it's contested, you always miss it.
I agree that if you defend well, the % of shots decrease, but now it's unreal, it's not decrease, but it's almost impossible. In nba you see good/great defense, but so many shots goes in anyway, in 2k no.

I post the real stats, not my opinion, but real basketball.
For example, talk about the difference between very tight contested shots (the most difficult shots), and open shots (the most simple), 2 and 3 points. look at the closest defender shots> 10 feet, not lay up within 10 feet:

westbrook

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/tracking/shots/

38% about contested 2 points shots, and 52% opens shots.
20% contested 3 points shots, and 37% open 3 points shots

harden

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201935/tracking/shots/

25% contested 2 points shots 44% open 2 points shots
25% 3 points contested shots, and 42% 3 points open

curry

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/

36% 2 points contested shots, and 50% open 2 points shots

anthony

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/tracking/shots/

42% contested 2 points shots, and 59% open shots
33% contested 3 points shots, and 50% open 3 points shots

bryant

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/tracking/shots/

33% contested 2 points shots, 45% open 2 points shots
12% contested 3 points shots 30%open 3 points shots

butler

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/tracking/shots/

50% contested 2 point shots, 49% 2 points open shots = he shoot better contested, lol
25% contested 3 points shots 37%open 3 points shots

conley

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201144/tracking/shots/

25% contested 2 points shots, 43% open 2 points shots
48% contested 3 points shots (tight, not really tight) 37%open 3 points shots

redick

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/200755/tracking/shots/

48% contested 2 points shots, 57% open 2 points shots
36% contested 3 points shots 47%open 3 points shots

korver

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2594/tracking/shots/

41% contested 2 points shots, 58% open 2 points shots
50% contested 3 points shots 53%open 3 points shots

rose

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/shots/

45% contested 2 points shots, 50% open 2 points shots
18% contested 3 points shots (tight) 25%open 3 points shots

paul

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101108/tracking/shots/

35% contested 2 points shots, 62% open 2 points shots
33% contested 3 points shots 41%open 3 points shots

gay

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/200752/tracking/shots/

44% contested 2 points shots, 70% open 2 points shots
20% contested 3 points shots 44%open 3 points shots

lillard

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203081/tracking/shots/

46% contested 2 points shots, 47% open 2 points shots
17% contested 3 points shots 35%open 3 points shots

t.evans

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201936/tracking/shots/

40% contested 2 points shots, 47% open 2 points shots
36% contested 3 points shots (tight)35%open 3 points shots

beal

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203078/tracking/shots/

19% contested 2 points shots, 25% open 2 points shots
44% contested 3 points shots(tight) 39%open 3 points shots

also big men:

davis

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203076/tracking/shots/

36% contested 2 points shots, 49% open 2 points shots

bosh

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2547/tracking/shots/

42% contested 2 points shots, 57% open 2 points shots

cousins

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202326/tracking/shots/

58% contested 2 points shots, 42% open 2 points shots

randolph

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2216/tracking/shots/

54% contested 2 points shots, 34% open 2 points shots = he shoots really better in contested shots


some other consideration about this:
- it's not real that in nba2k16 a really tight shot has a 0-5% success % of 2-3 point shots, and always grade f.
- it's not real that players have enormous different between contested or open shots, in reality every player has difference, big or small, and somebody shoots better contested than open shot. in every case no real the situation in the game now
- there are really bit very tight 2-3 point shots in the reality (except randolph, and some others...), in the game with lt trigger it's too simple contested very tight a shot > 10 feet, and there are so many contested shots.
- i talked only about the difference between very tught, and very open, but the difference it's less if consider a tight, and not very tight.
- about the midrange the better player in the league is chris paul, 62% open mid range, irrealistic if somebody shoots 65-70% or more, not in one match, but after several games.
- i talked about some players, but this happens almost to every player,also not really good player, sure for the good offensive player. in the 2k it's totally wrong and unrealistic.

so, 2k guys, you have to consider this, and change the success shot, and the attributes about every player on offensive end, consistency, awareness, about 2-3 point shots. now, it works really really bad.
cheers and sorry for my bad english.

[Sundown]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

I tell my opinion about defence and contested/open shots.
Also, now about defense, it's too simple contest shots, with lt trigger, and it's not real that EVERY contested shots has a grade "f", that does means never hits one (or almost never maybe...)mid or 3 point range jumper contested.
In the real basketball players like, curry, harden, westbrook, anthony,lebron,kobe, and many other good offensive players, hit sometimes (who more often, who less...) contested mid range or 3 contested shots. Now, in 2k16 it's impossibile, always "F" grade, and always miss that shots, not real.
In offline, maybe with awareness and consistence sliders, it's possible to adjust this, but online it's absurd. If a shots it's contested, you always miss it.
I agree that if you defend well, the % of shots decrease, but now it's unreal, it's not decrease, but it's almost impossible. In nba you see good/great defense, but so many shots goes in anyway, in 2k no.

I post the real stats, not my opinion, but real basketball.
For example, talk about the difference between very tight contested shots (the most difficult shots), and open shots (the most simple), 2 and 3 points. look at the closest defender shots> 10 feet, not lay up within 10 feet:

westbrook

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/tracking/shots/

38% about contested 2 points shots, and 52% opens shots.
20% contested 3 points shots, and 37% open 3 points shots

harden

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201935/tracking/shots/

25% contested 2 points shots 44% open 2 points shots
25% 3 points contested shots, and 42% 3 points open

curry

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/tracking/shots/

36% 2 points contested shots, and 50% open 2 points shots

anthony

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/tracking/shots/

42% contested 2 points shots, and 59% open shots
33% contested 3 points shots, and 50% open 3 points shots

bryant

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/tracking/shots/

33% contested 2 points shots, 45% open 2 points shots
12% contested 3 points shots 30%open 3 points shots

butler

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/tracking/shots/

50% contested 2 point shots, 49% 2 points open shots = he shoot better contested, lol
25% contested 3 points shots 37%open 3 points shots

conley

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201144/tracking/shots/

25% contested 2 points shots, 43% open 2 points shots
48% contested 3 points shots (tight, not really tight) 37%open 3 points shots

redick

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/200755/tracking/shots/

48% contested 2 points shots, 57% open 2 points shots
36% contested 3 points shots 47%open 3 points shots

korver

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2594/tracking/shots/

41% contested 2 points shots, 58% open 2 points shots
50% contested 3 points shots 53%open 3 points shots

rose

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/shots/

45% contested 2 points shots, 50% open 2 points shots
18% contested 3 points shots (tight) 25%open 3 points shots

paul

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/101108/tracking/shots/

35% contested 2 points shots, 62% open 2 points shots
33% contested 3 points shots 41%open 3 points shots

gay

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/200752/tracking/shots/

44% contested 2 points shots, 70% open 2 points shots
20% contested 3 points shots 44%open 3 points shots

lillard

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203081/tracking/shots/

46% contested 2 points shots, 47% open 2 points shots
17% contested 3 points shots 35%open 3 points shots

t.evans

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201936/tracking/shots/

40% contested 2 points shots, 47% open 2 points shots
36% contested 3 points shots (tight)35%open 3 points shots

beal

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203078/tracking/shots/

19% contested 2 points shots, 25% open 2 points shots
44% contested 3 points shots(tight) 39%open 3 points shots

also big men:

davis

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203076/tracking/shots/

36% contested 2 points shots, 49% open 2 points shots

bosh

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2547/tracking/shots/

42% contested 2 points shots, 57% open 2 points shots

cousins

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202326/tracking/shots/

58% contested 2 points shots, 42% open 2 points shots

randolph

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2216/tracking/shots/

54% contested 2 points shots, 34% open 2 points shots = he shoots really better in contested shots


some other consideration about this:
- it's not real that in nba2k16 a really tight shot has a 0-5% success % of 2-3 point shots, and always grade f.
- it's not real that players have enormous different between contested or open shots, in reality every player has difference, big or small, and somebody shoots better contested than open shot. in every case no real the situation in the game now
- there are really bit very tight 2-3 point shots in the reality (except randolph, and some others...), in the game with lt trigger it's too simple contested very tight a shot > 10 feet, and there are so many contested shots.
- i talked only about the difference between very tught, and very open, but the difference it's less if consider a tight, and not very tight.
- i talked about some players, but this happens almost to every player,also not really good player, sure for the good offensive player. in the 2k it's totally wrong and unrealistic.

so, 2k guys, you have to consider this, and change the success shot, and the attributes about every player on offensive end, consistency, awareness, about 2-3 point shots. now, it works really really bad.
cheers and sorry for my bad english.

Tightly contested shots are not the contested shot percentages you're listing.

Those are moderately-to-lightly contested shots. Tightly contested shots have a very low rate of accuracy in the NBA and are not often taken (1.7% of all shots or so).

The average for an open shot is around 45% from midrange and 40% from three. The average for a contested shot (2-4 feet) is 30% from three. It goes down drastically when it's tightly contested. (Probably in the teens or lower).

So the issue with 2K is that too many moderately contested or lightly contested shots are being treated like tightly contested shots. Tightly contested shots should certainly NOT fall at 30-40%. That would be disastrous.

Also players like cousins and Randolph don't just shoot better contested. It's the type of shots they're taking because they're low post players and shoot better out of a post move usually with a defender close. They're not as great as face up open jumper takers. Just giving them a high contested shot accuracy in all situations would also be a bad adjustment.

[lelets]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

Tightly contested shots are not the contested shot percentages you're listing.

Those are moderately-to-lightly contested shots. Tightly contested shots have a very low rate of accuracy in the NBA and are not often taken (1.7% of all shots or so).

The average for an open shot is around 45% from midrange and 40% from three. The average for a contested shot (2-4 feet) is 30% from three. It goes down drastically when it's tightly contested. (Probably in the teens or lower).

So the issue with 2K is that too many moderately contested or lightly contested shots are being treated like tightly contested shots. Tightly contested shots should certainly NOT fall at 30-40%. That would be disastrous.

Also players like cousins and Randolph don't just shoot better contested. It's the type of shots they're taking because they're low post players and shoot better out of a post move usually with a defender close. They're not as great as face up open jumper takers. Just giving them a high contested shot accuracy in all situations would also be a bad adjustment.

no, i put the % of very tight contested shots, except 1-2 players thats shoot really bit often that kind of shots. and i specified that.i dont't know if i missed some stats, but i talked only about very tight contested shots, not light.
i written that in the nba very tight contested shots are bit frequent, yes, 1,7 %read it. in the game it's too simple contested shots very tight, with lt trigger, so than real nba there are too many contested shots really tight, and % are near at 0, but in the reality it's not so low.
10% o rlower? lol, look at my link, i write the exact % about really tight 2-3 point shots.
About big men, randolph it's a perfect tipe of player that shoots very well nearfrom the basket when it's heavy contested.
so, i repeat, it's not real that so many shots have grade "F" and nothing goes in, in the reality that shots are not "f", or they hit more often.

[stillfeelme]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

Once 2K implements open, and contested ratings into the game I think the game overall will really shine. I think the problem is mainly the ability to get green releases causes the success rate to fluctuate from being too easy. I still think they should get away from excellent releases being "money" and more about excellent releases are the peak of the shot success rate based off stats

Combine that with the on ball defense that is played and you would see more normal contested jumpers at a realistic rate. Basically the way certain players attack off the dribble make it extra hard to tightly contest without fouling on a good amount of possessions.

[lelets]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

Once 2K implements open, and contested ratings into the game I think the game overall will really shine. I think the problem is mainly the ability to get green releases causes the success rate to fluctuate from being too easy. I still think they should get away from excellent releases being "money" and more about excellent releases are the peak of the shot success rate based off stats

Combine that with the on ball defense that is played and you would see more normal contested jumpers at a realistic rate. Basically the way certain players attack off the dribble make it extra hard to tightly contest without fouling on a good amount of possessions.

i agree, so offline i think it will be better to play with fg% real success, and not about user release. But in that case some attributes of the player are not very real, about consistency or awareness.

[Sundown]

Re: 3 pointers better than midrange now?

no, i put the % of very tight contested shots, except 1-2 players thats shoot really bit often that kind of shots. and i specified that.i dont't know if i missed some stats, but i talked only about very tight contested shots, not light.
i written that in the nba very tight contested shots are bit frequent, yes, 1,7 %read it. in the game it's too simple contested shots very tight, with lt trigger, so than real nba there are too many contested shots really tight, and % are near at 0, but in the reality it's not so low.
10% o rlower? lol, look at my link, i write the exact % about really tight 2-3 point shots.
About big men, randolph it's a perfect tipe of player that shoots very well nearfrom the basket when it's heavy contested.
so, i repeat, it's not real that so many shots have grade "F" and nothing goes in, in the reality that shots are not "f", or they hit more often.

Interesting. I may have misremembered the tightly contested percentages. But I certainly wouldn't want tightly contested to be at those accuracies in volume.

First you have to look at why they are rarely taken. It may be because it's the borderline case where the shooter is squared up and in motion and a defender contests enough to be close but not enough to affect the shot. It explains why Korver is rarely affected given that he's a catch and shoot shooter and he's tall enough to shoot over close outs. But you absolutely would not want Korver to be able to shoot from an isolation standstill at 50% with a defender draped over him in volume.

Also there's a big difference between 0 and 2 feet. It's hard to say which side players tend to lean towards.

And finally there's the fact that different players probably take their contested shots differently. Curry is probably taking one off the dribble while Korver is not. Not all tightly contested shots are equal, so it would be a bad idea to just increase contested percentages to those listed rates and call it a day. It would be ideal if 2K had ratings for every combination of range, contest levels, movement before the shot, and whether the shot was odd the dribble or on a catch. Then they can be matched to SportsVu data. Unfortunately we don't have that level of detail in the ratings.

But I agree that contested situations need adjustment, especially since lightly contested shots turn into heavily contested fadeaway animations that have zero chance of going in. This is apparently going to be fixed in the patch.