Post Patch On-Ball Defense

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I'm definitely for a greater variety of contact animations include more mild/glancing contact animations and hip-riding animations that don't simply suck your player in and stop movement.


As far as physics go, 2K seems to use a pretty simplified physics engine that selectively plays animations based on context and doesn't work well if those animations aren't there or aren't properly triggered.


As for fouls, many of those contact animations would be fouls if you watch any decent amount of modern basketball. Some players can get away with that physicality but it's certainly not ever player from 1-15. I mean when's the last time you saw a blocking foul in 2K16?



This. Modern NBA defenses rely on teamwork and schemes beyond just iso-handchecking.


It's also why I'm not sold on the approach 2K takes of nerfing CPU teammate defenders if you're not controlling them. They're in position to contest. They have their hands up. Why should they be treated as somewhat invisible just because I'm not switched on them, when they are in the proper defensive position for defending the man I funnelled to them?

Im asking questions now bc maybe you all meant to say something else and just worded it a certain way.

Is it safe to say that the contact should not have been toned down but more under control. Being they have only a certain amount of variety in contact ani's, give the stronger ani's to the better defenders and the weaker ones to the less skilled defenders?

I already know how defense is played on a team level we do not really disagree on that. We are talking about more of the one on one on ball defense.

I dont know if 2k can add that type of distribution in animations right now but if the could would you be cool if kwahi Leonard bumping and bodying you up like pre patch?

[Sundown]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Im asking questions now bc maybe you all meant to say something else and just worded it a certain way.

Is it safe to say that the contact should not have been toned down but more under control. Being they have only a certain amount of variety in contact ani's, give the stronger ani's to the better defenders and the weaker ones to the less skilled defenders?

I already know how defense is played on a team level we do not really disagree on that. We are talking about more of the one on one on ball defense.

I dont know if 2k can add that type of distribution in animations right now but if the could would you be cool if kwahi Leonard bumping and bodying you up like pre patch?

Better defenders can have animations that show slightly more physicality but they should not trigger at slight angles and those animations causing the offensive player to get sucked in and stop movement should not be the majority of how defense is played. If those animations trigger while the defensive player is moving and before he has established position with a cut off, then that should be a foul. Hip riding animations that force the dribbler to slow a bit and take a wider angle should occur instead.

Even Kawhi doesn't play defense with the heavy bumping you see pre patch. He plays defense with his length and ability to poke at the ball without contact and ability to recover to block the shot. Sometimes he actually gives up the lane just to block the shot.

Watch his defensive highlights. Notice how there is zero perimeter bumping on the ball handler like you see pre-patch.

As far is whether the patch is better I have an Xbox One so I don't have the patch. I'm merely commenting on how it looks in videos, how it plays before the patch, and how actual basketball is played.

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Better defenders can have animations that show slightly more physicality but they should not trigger at slight angles and those animations causing the offensive player to get sucked in and stop movement should not be the majority of how defense is played. If those animations trigger while the defensive player is moving and before he has established position with a cut off, then that should be a foul. Hip riding animations that force the dribbler to slow a bit and take a wider angle should occur instead.

Even Kawhi doesn't play defense with the heavy bumping you see pre patch. He plays defense with his length and ability to poke at the ball without contact and ability to recover to block the shot. Sometimes he actually gives up the lane just to block the shot.

Watch his defensive highlights. Notice how there is zero perimeter bumping on the ball handler like you see pre-patch.

As far is whether the patch is better I have an Xbox One so I don't have the patch. I'm merely commenting on how it looks in videos, how it plays before the patch, and how actual basketball is played.

Ok so you don't really have a problem with bumping you just have a problem with the situations its used in and the way its used bc the hip riding animation is jostling or collision which is what bumping means by definition.


Taking it out was not the solution. Improving it was which is what I think your really getting at and I can agree if THAT is your stance.


However ME personally, I did not have a problem with how the defense was bc we have had a offensive heavy game for years. There had to be something added to prevent ppl from just morphing through or treadmill running through shh like it was not even there so I was cool bc I knew improvements are for sure coming anyway. They improve their physics every year.




OK maybe yall have watched this video thinking EVERYBODY can and plays on ball defense like this LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UipM10DdG0

If you listen he says Kawhi is UNLIKE ANY LOCKDOWN defender he has covered, Meaning he plays defense to HIS streghths so bc he has that RARE size, length, and athletism, mixed with his high defensive IQ only HE and the VERY few(no more than 5 in my op) of his caliber can play defense like that giving ground.


So don't get it twisted this is NOT the prototype for playing defense yo LOL. When you cut somebody off there will be that BUMP if you were successful bc you will stop them from going thus way, and even defenders other than Kawhi are giving ground its not suppose to be just a free run you still have to keep your man under control dude.


It would be super dope if 2k could capture SIGNATURE on ball defense though and we could choose our style on a created player to trigger certain animations bc I've seen some of this guys videos before. The Patrick Beverly one to be exact.

[BegBy]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I have no issue with hip riding or contact animations where the ball handler gets to continue to move (roughly) where they are going. That's basketball. If a defender escorts, allows or funnels a ball handler to the baseline, help defense or a trap, I'm more than ok with it. What I truly dislike are the violent collisions in which both players basically stop, or the rare animation where the ball handler bounces back like 8 feet. Those are always a foul. It may be charging, or blocking, but it's always foul. It's rarely a call in this game, and it's incredibly unrealistic. Just as important as the animation is how it happened and that's always terrible also. Defenders somehow morphing through screens, recovering from screens and accelerating at physics defying speeds, defenders reacting the precise instant the ball handler makes a move, etc.

Just because the game lacks a lot on the defensive end fundamentally doesn't mean that offense should be neutered via any of the suspect issues. Until the developers rework the defense we will continue to see band aid fixes like poor ball handling animations, lack of explosiveness from offensive players and a host of other issues mentioned and more.

I get that online play is where these issues get exploited. I just feel, and I recognize I'm being selfish in saying this, that until some core issues are fixed, it will never change and it really sucks for people who do not play online. Tuning the game or catering to the online crowd is more difficult in that you have constant human input on both ends of the ball, and people will always do whatever is necessary to win. People will always try to do too many dribble moves and drive. People will always try to steal spam or camp in the key. Factoring in human unpredictability and complete lack of tendencies (aside from our compulsion to cheese to win) is near impossible to replicate to provide a good simulation analog. So why try? Code for cpu core play and tendencies. Cultivate good fundamentals so that it functions on a simulation level. After that people can complain all they want.

Don't get rid of contact, but the excessive physicality is a bit much. Fixing why it happens should be the first priority but since that seems years away I hope the continued effort to strike a balance is pursued, but not at the expense of the overall offensive experience because not all players are Leonard-esque and not all teams are the Spurs.

[DatGD12guage]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I have no issue with hip riding or contact animations where the ball handler gets to continue to move (roughly) where they are going. That's basketball. If a defender escorts, allows or funnels a ball handler to the baseline, help defense or a trap, I'm more than ok with it. What I truly dislike are the violent collisions in which both players basically stop, or the rare animation where the ball handler bounces back like 8 feet. Those are always a foul. It may be charging, or blocking, but it's always foul. It's rarely a call in this game, and it's incredibly unrealistic. Just as important as the animation is how it happened and that's always terrible also. Defenders somehow morphing through screens, recovering from screens and accelerating at physics defying speeds, defenders reacting the precise instant the ball handler makes a move, etc.

Just because the game lacks a lot on the defensive end fundamentally doesn't mean that offense should be neutered via any of the suspect issues. Until the developers rework the defense we will continue to see band aid fixes like poor ball handling animations, lack of explosiveness from offensive players and a host of other issues mentioned and more.

I get that online play is where these issues get exploited. I just feel, and I recognize I'm being selfish in saying this, that until some core issues are fixed, it will never change and it really sucks for people who do not play online. Tuning the game or catering to the online crowd is more difficult in that you have constant human input on both ends of the ball, and people will always do whatever is necessary to win. People will always try to do too many dribble moves and drive. People will always try to steal spam or camp in the key. Factoring in human unpredictability and complete lack of tendencies (aside from our compulsion to cheese to win) is near impossible to replicate to provide a good simulation analog. So why try? Code for cpu core play and tendencies. Cultivate good fundamentals so that it functions on a simulation level. After that people can complain all they want.

Don't get rid of contact, but the excessive physicality is a bit much. Fixing why it happens should be the first priority but since that seems years away I hope the continued effort to strike a balance is pursued, but not at the expense of the overall offensive experience because not all players are Leonard-esque and not all teams are the Spurs.

That bumping u all are talking about being a foul is debatable. I need to see a video of what bump you guys are talking about. The bumps I see in this game could go either way.

You actually can dribble through contact you know that right? You can spin thru contact, cross, dribble behind your back, protect the ball, etc.

Also all the bumps I've seen were very very short and not long drawn out sequences that could be broken out of.

[ESRyder312]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I took a week off to see if anything would change, but nothing changed.

At this point, I seem to play more to see how bad the non-contact animations can get. So, here's more proof that 2K needs to tweak something.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7K_NVqAOIq0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Uk0kVNeQ3QE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/C3sQIyiZkog" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

NBA 2K16 Patch 3 got me like...

[Jrocc23]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I just don't feel as fluid on defense as I used to.

[The 24th Letter]

Post Patch On-Ball Defense

IDK, on ball D is pretty fun for me online- it's a challenge- though like I said in the other thread- it could use some tightening to make up for lag...

https://vid.me/L4nM

EZ are you using LT, RS at all? Can't tell in the vid

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I play Pro Am and My Team the most and while I am not thoroughly thrilled: I am pleasantly content with the defensive responses and controls.

As someone said, offense gets the right of way so I feel defense is a challenge you meet - it's not rewarded to you but rather it's something you must continually and relentlessly hustle for and I feel the game does a good job of putting this impetus on you.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[ESRyder312]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

@24 Yes, I'm using L2 to defend. I also throw in R2 (turbo) occasionally.

[Kully]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

Thanks for that post ESRyder. Highlights some of the issues I have post patchg 3 with defending the CPU.

Making the AI a little worse on D was good, but I don't think they needed to nerf the user on ball defense as well. I don't get that contact that I used to on drives.

[BegBy]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

That bumping u all are talking about being a foul is debatable. I need to see a video of what bump you guys are talking about. The bumps I see in this game could go either way.

You actually can dribble through contact you know that right? You can spin thru contact, cross, dribble behind your back, protect the ball, etc.

Also all the bumps I've seen were very very short and not long drawn out sequences that could be broken out of.

The bumping I see, which is back to pre patch levels, isn't debatable and as I keep saying it's how it happens. Defenders in this game are beyond ridiculous. However when you do next to nothing, or just keep trying you'll eventually beat them, assuming you don't lose the ball or get put into that positively heinous animation where you put your back to them and lose about 50 iq points and then complete control of your motor functions.

How any single person that actually watches NBA basketball or knows anything at all about physics can say that what they see in 2k is realistic is so far beyond logical it's actually laughable.

As long as the online crowd gets their loldefense though. Enjoy 'realistic defense' in 2 on 2 in the park.

[sirjam]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

IDK, on ball D is pretty fun for me online- it's a challenge- though like I said in the other thread- it could use some tightening to make up for lag...

https://vid.me/L4nM

EZ are you using LT, RS at all? Can't tell in the vid

I wanna ask u the samething. Are u using rstick to cutoff or was you using Lt?

[The 24th Letter]

Post Patch On-Ball Defense

I wanna ask u the samething. Are u using rstick to cutoff or was you using Lt?

A combination.....guarding with LT + RT- when I see what angle they're taking I throw the stick to that side to cut them off.....deep in the paint I throw the stick straight up to contest

[ViolenceFight]

Re: Post Patch On-Ball Defense

A combination.....guarding with LT + RT- when I see what angle they're taking I throw the stick to that side to cut them off.....deep in the paint I throw the stick straight up to contest

This. I used to think all that right stick stuff was silly. Started using it little by little this year. Don't understand how I played without it.

In park, it's L2 anytime I think I'll make contact, let go of it to move. R2 if I need to catch up. Predict the direction, cut it off with LS and L2, throw the RS that way to trigger a bump, use the separation off the bump to cut off the next angle the same way. Frustrates people when they get locked down trying to zig zag, especially if they don't even get to take 2 steps in the other direction.

You guess wrong sometimes, but error is human