Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Reading through this thread, I can't believe what's happened to this community.

Guys are really trying to argue and say that every wide open shot should be an automatic make? My god, even the best 3 point shooters only make their shots a bit over 40% of the time.

I won't get into that again, because it's been hammered home enough, but these guys really need to find a way to separate sliders and shooting updates for offline and online modes. I'm all for you park guys wanting to have fun and make every shot, not have to worry about stamina, and dunk on everyone like it's NBA jam.

This type of gameplay is affecting PNO/Pro Am and Offline gamers TOO much. Park guys are the most vocal on twitter, and as soon as something changes they're in an uproar.

Shooting offline was great after the last update using real fg% , I already know it's going to revert back to what it was prior, due to the twitter complaints.

For the love of God, I'm praying for 2K18 they find a way to separate the gameplay for park and the other modes, because it's ruining the foundation of simulation basketball. Everyone can be happy, don't punish a certain group of players because one crowd wants sim and the other wants arcade.




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I don't know about you guys, but this game doesn't even feel like basketball anymore. Everything is slow, animation heavy and canned. There's no defense in this game and nobody can ever agree on how shooting should be

Playing this game vs watching real basketball, this game isn't anything like real basketball.

That being said, why try to make it play like real basketball now when they're are already countless amounts of things that make this game unrealistic besides shooting

[de5m0n]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I don't know about you guys, but this game doesn't even feel like basketball anymore. Everything is slow, animation heavy and canned. There's no defense in this game and nobody can ever agree on how shooting should be

Playing this game vs watching real basketball, this game isn't anything like real basketball.

That being said, why try to make it play like real basketball now when they're are already countless amounts of things that make this game unrealistic besides shooting

This game is like animation domination. Half the battle is skill and the ther half is drawing the right animations. I haven't heard the word "animation" in any other game until i started playing 2k.

Is there a way to get rid of animations and just have free movement?

[Gosens6]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I don't know about you guys, but this game doesn't even feel like basketball anymore. Everything is slow, animation heavy and canned. There's no defense in this game and nobody can ever agree on how shooting should be



Playing this game vs watching real basketball, this game isn't anything like real basketball.



That being said, why try to make it play like real basketball now when they're are already countless amounts of things that make this game unrealistic besides shooting

It definitely has its moments. I'll be playing and the game will look smooth, play an excellent game of sim ball in one breath, and then in the next soemthing looks completely off and ridiculous that shouldn't happen..

This release was a bit of a mess this year, the constant tweaks to shooting didn't help anyone, and the defensive issues speak for themselves. I hope for 2K18 they can please everyone.

I can tell by the way Czar and Mike Wang interact with us on here, they're not happy with the product they put out this year. They hold themselves to such a high standard (whether people believe this or not) they know they have to get back on the ball and rectify what happened with 2K17.




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[VAWereWolf65]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

This game is like animation domination. Half the battle is skill and the ther half is drawing the right animations. I haven't heard the word "animation" in any other game until i started playing 2k.

Is there a way to get rid of animations and just have free movement?

They need to rework the entire game before people start complaining about how unrealistic shooting is.

The whole *** **** game is unrealistic. Deal with it or don't play it. It's not like anyone is forcing you to.

[Dione2014]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I see where the online guys are coming from with green releases. Me and Space jam JT (he's actually my best friend irl) have 2 totally different opinions on the matter. He competes in 2K tournaments, and I play offline mostly. He and i are both complete Sim heads. We've been that way since toddlers, but when it comes to 2K we have very different opinions about the shooting systems in the game.

He want's shooting to be black and white( open shots go in 90% of the time and contested shots miss 90% of the time). I on the other hand want shooting to be more colorful like it is in real life. (more contested shot's go down and more open shots miss). I want guys to shoot very close to their real life percentages. The best shooter in the NBA is only hitting 50% of his wide open shots, Also contested shots fall quite a bit in real life. Unless a player has a defender standing in his shot pocket, a lot of good/great players only drop 1-5 percent shooting contested shot vs open shots. This is what I want to see in 2K. That's where JT and I disagree.

He's aware of how shooting works in real life, Yet he still want's things to be black and white. And when it comes to online play, I totally get it. There isn't many ways you can make a deep skill gap in a basketball video game and have it still play as fluid as 2k plays. The game is animation heavy, and 60 percent of the game is played for you. So when you tweak green release the way 2K has been doing (especially in an RPG style game), You start making things too unpredictable. That's fine and actually pretty solid for offline play, But when you're out here competing for 250k, you want things to be as skill based as possible. At that point nobody is thinking about realistic shooting percentages. They're thinking about winning.

I've been playing basketball for 20 years. Not once was I ever worried about sim stats and realistic shooting. Winning was the only thing on my mind. If weather my team shot 70 percent or 30 percent, all i cared about was the W. That's how these pro am guys think. That's why you get such a contrast between the online players and offline players

[ruxpinke]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Thats an interesting perspective - this definitely made me understand the other side a bit more.

IMO, All the more reason for at a minimum some kind of separation of modes (pure skill based vs NBA sim), or at the most a separate e-sports type game. maybe call it 2k ProAM. No NBA license, similar engine, tuned for that type of experience. Greens for days on open shots.

[Caelumfang]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I see where the online guys are coming from with green releases. Me and Space jam JT (he's actually my best friend irl) have 2 totally different opinions on the matter. He competes in 2K tournaments, and I play offline mostly. He and i are both complete Sim heads. We've been that way since toddlers, but when it comes to 2K we have very different opinions about the shooting systems in the game.

He want's shooting to be black and white( open shots go in 90% of the time and contested shots miss 90% of the time). I on the other hand want shooting to be more colorful like it is in real life. (more contested shot's go down and more open shots miss). I want guys to shoot very close to their real life percentages. The best shooter in the NBA is only hitting 50% of his wide open shots, Also contested shots fall quite a bit in real life. Unless a player has a defender standing in his shot pocket, a lot of good/great players only drop 1-5 percent shooting contested shot vs open shots. This is what I want to see in 2K. That's where JT and I disagree.

He's aware of how shooting works in real life, Yet he still want's things to be black and white. And when it comes to online play, I totally get it. There isn't many ways you can make a deep skill gap in a basketball video game and have it still play as fluid as 2k plays. The game is animation heavy, and 60 percent of the game is played for you. So when you tweak green release the way 2K has been doing (especially in an RPG style game), You start making things too unpredictable. That's fine and actually pretty solid for offline play, But when you're out here competing for 250k, you want things to be as skill based as possible. At that point nobody is thinking about realistic shooting percentages. They're thinking about winning.

I've been playing basketball for 20 years. Not once was I ever worried about sim stats and realistic shooting. Winning was the only thing on my mind. If weather my team shot 70 percent or 30 percent, all i cared about was the W. That's how these pro am guys think. That's why you get such a contrast between the online players and offline players

Thing is, what I don't think he understands is this: There's a stark difference between thinking about winning, and thinking about winning AT ALL COSTS. The 'at all costs' crowd are the ones that have to be worried about. They're the ones willing to win by any means necessary, even if that means using every single available exploit imaginable, and are willing to label its use as 'skill.'

[Dione2014]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Thing is, what I don't think he understands is this: There's a stark difference between thinking about winning, and thinking about winning AT ALL COSTS. The 'at all costs' crowd are the ones that have to be worried about. They're the ones willing to win by any means necessary, even if that means using every single available exploit imaginable, and are willing to label its use as 'skill.'

That's what the incentive of money will do to players who compete for it. This is the exact part that I hate the most about that side of the 2K community.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I see where the online guys are coming from with green releases. Me and Space jam JT (he's actually my best friend irl) have 2 totally different opinions on the matter. He competes in 2K tournaments, and I play offline mostly. He and i are both complete Sim heads. We've been that way since toddlers, but when it comes to 2K we have very different opinions about the shooting systems in the game.

He want's shooting to be black and white( open shots go in 90% of the time and contested shots miss 90% of the time). I on the other hand want shooting to be more colorful like it is in real life. (more contested shot's go down and more open shots miss). I want guys to shoot very close to their real life percentages. The best shooter in the NBA is only hitting 50% of his wide open shots, Also contested shots fall quite a bit in real life. Unless a player has a defender standing in his shot pocket, a lot of good/great players only drop 1-5 percent shooting contested shot vs open shots. This is what I want to see in 2K. That's where JT and I disagree.

He's aware of how shooting works in real life, Yet he still want's things to be black and white. And when it comes to online play, I totally get it. There isn't many ways you can make a deep skill gap in a basketball video game and have it still play as fluid as 2k plays. The game is animation heavy, and 60 percent of the game is played for you. So when you tweak green release the way 2K has been doing (especially in an RPG style game), You start making things too unpredictable. That's fine and actually pretty solid for offline play, But when you're out here competing for 250k, you want things to be as skill based as possible. At that point nobody is thinking about realistic shooting percentages. They're thinking about winning.

I've been playing basketball for 20 years. Not once was I ever worried about sim stats and realistic shooting. Winning was the only thing on my mind. If weather my team shot 70 percent or 30 percent, all i cared about was the W. That's how these pro am guys think. That's why you get such a contrast between the online players and offline players

I just don't see how shooting is skill-based. In fact I think it takes the least amount of skill in 2K compared to other aspects of the game. As you can see all a dev has to do is bump that 3 point slider to the left and suddenly all that skill is gone and everyone on Twitter starts complaining.

There's plenty of other ways you can make a skill-gap in 2K. When I think of things that take skill in 2K I think of being able to chain together dribble moves to break down the CPU to get to the rim. Skill to me is knowing how to play on-ball defense and knowing how and when to cut off driving angles and when to use Intense-D or turbo. Or being able to run a freelance or plays out of a playbook and getting good quality shots out of them. Knowing how to work the post and utilize drop steps, hook shots or fadeaways. Or being able to read a play on defense and intercept a pass, or knowing which help defenders to rotate to cut off a driving lane.

Shooting to me is the easiest and most basic thing to do in this game. I mean there's literally a bar at the bottom of your players feet that tells you when to release the shot. How can that be skill based? At the end of the day outside of green releases, shooting is still based on a dice roll that factors in that players ratings and percentages. You can get a Very Early release and hit a shot and you can get a full white bar that bricks. Any scrub player can drop 50 bucks on some VC, max out their shooting ratings, grind out some badges on Rookie difficulty, go into practice mode for 5 minutes to learn their release and BOOM their suddenly an unstoppable God in 2K that can green every shot. That's not skill to me.

[E The Rhymer]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Agreed. I'm tired of these center glas cleaners/ldd/post scorers being money from the corner 3 while also excelling at their primary role. MY stretch can't do anything else but shoot and now they are messing with the shot again. On any day, my shot changes and it is all over the place. 1 day i can shoot, the next day it's reversed. This is not right. How about you mess with the slashers and turn off their finishing ability every other week and see how they feel when they can't make a lightly contested layup/dunk. How about you decrease all defenders defense from 94 to 84 for couple days just to mess with them too.

Just saying they did "F" up slasher early in the year when RF was broken but we had to play for 2 months with it like that and not a single non slasher cared so...


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[CBAT]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I'm just looking for some consistency. If my 66 ratings for 3 pointers on my point forward results in him shooting 65% from 3, so be it, if it results in him shooting 35% from 3, so be it. Just give me some consistency so I don't have to constantly change my game around after a patch comes out.

This almost feels like a money grab. With the constant changing, it makes certain archetypes more or less valuable, therefore players will go out and make a new player in order to try and take advantage of the change. Although, the badge grind makes the less serious players less likely to make a new player and grind for the badges. 2K would make more money if you were able to just create a player and buy everything with VC.

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

But we arent talking about every other game mechanic that affects shots. We are talking about wide open uncontested shots, which you call smart basketball.

Players shouldn't make shots simply because they are open. They should make shots based on their ratings. Getting a high quality shooter in his spots with a good look is great, but that shouldn't mean the shot should drop. It just means the player has a good look and a better chance of hitting. The reward for an open shot should just be an open shot.

We know that contested shots drop in at a lower rate than uncontested, and uncontested shots drop in the best shooters at around 50ish percent. You start there move down.

And stop with the not in control non-sense. As long as you can move your player, call plays, and select when to shoot you are in control. But shooting, even at the highest level, is still a gamble and it may or may not go in.

So your argument is still don't fix anything with shooting until you fix everything AND all shooter should make open shots. You're absurd.

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I already explained in my post & in the other thread why your idea is terrible. You provide no worthwhile or relevant rebuttal and have the audacity to call me absurd.

Ill sum it up one last time as simply as possible:

If your ideas were implemented the avg total fg% would hang around 10%-30%(ish, just arbitrary brickfest numbers) because preventing open shots is easy. This game has decent fg% because people don't miss the occasional shots that are open.

At this point, raising contested shot% would make sense for realism. Why would you only add the real open%?

If you also raised contested shot% to match IRL% then that would make it so there's a statistically insignificant difference between open and contested shots within the context of a 5 minute quarter 2k game. Thus highly randomzing outcomes and bringing down the value of defense.

Scoring is the objective of basketball. Your idea makes scoring into a 100% AI generated diceroll. The winner is a randomized outcome with a very minor skill factor. You can drop percentages without ridiculous "real fg%" ideas

If you don't see how this takes away control of outcome or skill from the player...

Spoiler

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Okay so i think we can all agree that contested shots drop significantly less than open shots. That being said, If you're playing good defense, what's the big deal?

It's not like people are constantly getting green lights on fade away three pointers. If they're wide open, who's fault is it if they make the shot?

Nobody's but your own.

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Okay so i think we can all agree that contested shots drop significantly less than open shots. That being said, If you're playing good defense, what's the big deal?

It's not like people are constantly getting green lights on fade away three pointers. If they're wide open, who's fault is it if they make the shot?

Nobody's but your own.

Yep thats basically part of what i'm saying.

Not leaving shooters open is the easiest thing you can do. If people are getting a lot of open shots due to brick wall or (whatever 'cheese' mechanic) then fixing that should be the priority before we even talk about %'s. But no, this concept is crazy to them.

[de_jesus]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

I already explained in my post & in the other thread why your idea is terrible. You provide no worthwhile or relevant rebuttal and have the audacity to call me absurd.

Ill sum it up one last time as simply as possible:

If your ideas were implemented the avg total fg% would hang around 10%-30%(ish, just arbitrary brickfest numbers) because preventing open shots is easy. This game has decent fg% because people don't miss the occasional shots that are open.

At this point, raising contested shot% would make sense for realism. Why would you only add the real open%?

If you also raised contested shot% to match IRL% then that would make it so there's a statistically insignificant difference between open and contested shots within the context of a 5 minute quarter 2k game. Thus highly randomzing outcomes and bringing down the value of defense.

Scoring is the objective of basketball. Your idea makes scoring into a 100% AI generated diceroll. The winner is a randomized outcome with a very minor skill factor. You can drop percentages without ridiculous "real fg%" ideas

If you don't see how this takes away control of outcome or skill from the player...

Spoiler

Your proposals are objectively silly.

You are quite literally suggesting changing absolutely nothing unless you can change everything. Don't make anything better until you fix everything. Whereas I'm suggesting you change the one factor of shooting that depends on the least amount of outside factors: wide open shots.

It's just the shooter's rating, his spot in the floor, and (depending on the setting) the shot timing. That more than anything would address the shooting issue.

It seems you are incapable of understanding that point.

Your proposal is absurd because it's absolutist. Do everything or do nothing. That's dumb, and you know it. Every aspect of shooting doesn't need to be perfectly realistic, but wide open shots shouldn't fall at 60%+ consistently for generic shooters.

Furthermore, my proposal does not at all call for shooting to be in the low 10s to 30s percentage range. Nothing about my proposal says a player cannot shoot over 50% from beyond the arc. But that should be reserved for high level players on wide open shots - Steph, Durant, Korver, and the occasional Avery Bradley type player. Shooting percentages do not need to consistently be in the high 60s or 70s for 3-point shooters, especially poor 3-pt shooters on a consistent basis simply because they are open.

Your other points are equally silly. I'm not now, nor have I ever suggested, every aspect of shooting be made realistic. Instead, and I know you'll fail to grasp this, the chance to hit any absolutely wide open 3-pt shot should be limited for every shooter according to ratings. At best I suggest 50-some-odd percent for the shot to drop. That doesn't mean someone can't shoot over 50% it just means that doing so should be difficult and not the norm for everyone taking 3-pt shots. Everything else with regarding to contested 3-pt shooting should be under that to some degree.

Beyond that, I don't think scoring should be entirely AI dependent. You surmised that somehow...

Scoring should have obvious limitations based on a players ratings and, in most game modes, more accurately reflect wide open shot percentages we actually see. Shooting is a dice roll, and it should be.

Good shots miss ALL THE TIME even for the absolute best shooters. DeRozan recently had a game where he missed EVERYTHING. Durant and Curry have both had games where they flounder on wide open looks.

A good look doesn't mean the shot should drop. Being wide open doesn't mean you're playing good offense (Roberson gets left wide open and shoots 24% on threes. Teams literally don't bother guarding him. No amount of player "skill" should be able to turn him into a sharp shooter because he is open but the previous versions of 2K allowed guys like that to shoot). Plus, shooting in 2K isn't a skill. It's still VERY randomized.

That's why very early release and very late release shots drop while plenty of shots with full white bars clang off the rim. That's not skill. RNJesus always determines if shots drop, and that's fine.