Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

[DakkoN]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Was something done to the acceleration/player speed? My playmaker that I've used since the game came out suddenly doesn't feel athletic AT ALL. I'm getting full court pressed, break a dude's ankles, and still getting caught from behind.. No clue what's going on.

[Caelumfang]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Okay so i think we can all agree that contested shots drop significantly less than open shots. That being said, If you're playing good defense, what's the big deal?

It's not like people are constantly getting green lights on fade away three pointers. If they're wide open, who's fault is it if they make the shot?

Nobody's but your own.

Sounds good on paper, but considering LDDs, Glass Cleaners, Slashers, etc were considered reliable 3-point threats when they were clearly built to not function in that manner prior to the latest batch of shooting changes, you really don't have a leg to stand on with your 'point.'

That's like saying 'omg it's your fault Rondo/Dwight/Tony Allen/etc went 5/5 or 6/6 from 3 because you left them open!' Um, that's because they were left open purposely, knowing that they are not 3-point threats, and there should be no need to press them as if they were Klay/Steph/Korver/etc. However, prior to the latest shooting patches, the system allowed this because 'I know their release.'

[Maligx]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

wow played walkon for the first time since all these changes and i shot terribly when i was open, im talking stuff that was always green were full white bars and shot 37% which is terrible for hof sharpshooter. I don't even cheese, these are just open corner/wing shots catch and shoot. I'm fine with nerfing shooting to a more realistic % but wow I got like 1 green out of 20 shots.

[de_jesus]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Had the exact same thing happen in my first game after the change. I realized that catching on a "Catch n Shoot" then allowing a moment to go buy where my player faces the basket a little cleaner made my shot drop much more frequently.

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Sounds good on paper, but considering LDDs, Glass Cleaners, Slashers, etc were considered reliable 3-point threats when they were clearly built to not function in that manner prior to the latest batch of shooting changes, you really don't have a leg to stand on with your 'point.'

That's like saying 'omg it's your fault Rondo/Dwight/Tony Allen/etc went 5/5 or 6/6 from 3 because you left them open!' Um, that's because they were left open purposely, knowing that they are not 3-point threats, and there should be no need to press them as if they were Klay/Steph/Korver/etc. However, prior to the latest shooting patches, the system allowed this because 'I know their release.'

Do you think they would still go 5/5 or 6/6 if you played good defense? Don't think so.

[de_jesus]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Do you think they would still go 5/5 or 6/6 if you played good defense? Don't think so.

His point is that Tony Allen / Andre Roberson behind the arc shouldn't need good defense. They shoot so poorly they barely need bad defense played on them. These guys can not shoot and should not be allowed to simply because they are open.

Defense should focus on the key threats on the floor. We shoud not have to waste a defender on a guy who literally can't shoot. Why would anyone guard Tony Allen or D.Jordan at the arc?

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Your proposals are objectively silly.

You are quite literally suggesting changing absolutely nothing unless you can change everything. Don't make anything better until you fix everything. Whereas I'm suggesting you change the one factor of shooting that depends on the least amount of outside factors: wide open shots.

It's just the shooter's rating, his spot in the floor, and (depending on the setting) the shot timing. That more than anything would address the shooting issue.

It seems you are incapable of understanding that point.

How do wide open shots depend on the least amount of factors?

How did you get open?
Why were you open?
Did you just spawn into the game wide open?
Are you omnipresent on the floor wide open 24/7?
Can anyone do something to prevent you from being wide open?

Btw you're going into this with a bias that my hypothetical proposals in the previous post would be improvements or making it "better" as you said. I want an objectively balanced game. My true sim proposal would provide the most balance, but also randomize outcomes extreme levels.

Your proposal is absurd because it's absolutist. Do everything or do nothing. That's dumb, and you know it. Every aspect of shooting doesn't need to be perfectly realistic, but wide open shots shouldn't fall at 60%+ consistently for generic shooters.

Furthermore, my proposal does not at all call for shooting to be in the low 10s to 30s percentage range. Nothing about my proposal says a player cannot shoot over 50% from beyond the arc. But that should be reserved for high level players on wide open shots - Steph, Durant, Korver, and the occasional Avery Bradley type player. Shooting percentages do not need to consistently be in the high 60s or 70s for 3-point shooters, especially poor 3-pt shooters on a consistent basis simply because they are open.

I've made that point in damn near every post i've made in this thread and the previous thread. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that I'm saying every shot from everyone should fall "60%+". I made this clear in the other thread too.

The gist from my posts in the other thread which you conveniently ignored was: sharpshooters are currently worthless because everyone makes shots.

Your other points are equally silly. I'm not now, nor have I ever suggested, every aspect of shooting be made realistic. Instead, and I know you'll fail to grasp this, the chance to hit any absolutely wide open 3-pt shot should be limited for every shooter according to ratings. At best I suggest 50-some-odd percent for the shot to drop. That doesn't mean someone can't shoot over 50% it just means that doing so should be difficult and not the norm for everyone taking 3-pt shots. Everything else with regarding to contested 3-pt shooting should be under that to some degree.

Beyond that, I don't think scoring should be entirely AI dependent. You surmised that somehow...

Scoring should have obvious limitations based on a players ratings and, in most game modes, more accurately reflect wide open shot percentages we actually see. Shooting is a dice roll, and it should be.

Good shots miss ALL THE TIME even for the absolute best shooters. DeRozan recently had a game where he missed EVERYTHING. Durant and Curry have both had games where they flounder on wide open looks.

Again, I thought i made this clear so I wont respond to the blatant strawman you tried to throw at me in here and the cut out pieces from this quote. But I do want to respond to some of this here.

1. In the context of competitive 2k17, open shots from sharpshooters should be automatic. No dice rolls. Play defense. Defense doesnt get hard until you factor in other aspects of gameplay like brick wall and speedboosts and blind players etc. (on-ball D vs high ball control is a different animal)

2. Yes good shooters have bad games in real life. Defense is also hard in real life.

It is not hard to defend shooters in 2k. Until shooter defense in 2k matches the difficulty of RL, then it has no business being anything close to realistic. Dropped a bit? Sure. Drop the non-shooter builds? Obviously.

That being said, archetypes in 2k18 are gonna have to be based on the 3pt shot. They should all be somewhat viable, with the near perfection going for sharpshooters/high ratings. Players in the NBA who can't shoot are being phased out. No reason to intentionally make them unviable.

[de_jesus]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

You're repeating exactly what I said you've already said, and saying I'm using a strawman. I'm not misrepresenting your argument in the slightest. You think shots should fall if open. You can sequester that opinion to sharpshooters all you like but the core of your argument is that shots should fall at an unprecedented rate, whether that's 60%+ or automatic is entirely irrelevant, and should only be affected by a defender.

That's silly, and would invite cheese into the game. Players would just run around as sharpshooters, get open, and hit the shot. That's not an indication of skill, whatsoever.

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

You're repeating exactly what I said you've already said, and saying I'm using a strawman. I'm not misrepresenting your argument in the slightest. You think shots should fall if open. You can sequester that opinion to sharpshooters all you like but the core of your argument is that shots should fall at an unprecedented rate, whether that's 60%+ or automatic is entirely irrelevant, and should only be affected by a defender.

That's silly, and would invite cheese into the game. Players would just run around as sharpshooters, get open, and hit the shot. That's not an indication of skill, whatsoever.

If you honestly believe that people would "run around and get open" as sharps, then that's where the disconnect is. That's not a realistic assessment. It's provable because we have high shooting % high right now.

The only time a sharp is left open is in confusion in transition or left open by dumb defense. I said it several times, it's not hard to keep up with them running around.

And in a normal 1 v 1 scenario - set the AI to not help off them. Off ball actions are too slow and are worthless, open shots are never going to develop.

[jyoung]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Green releases are still possible for non-shooters to consistently achieve in the current tuning; I've gotten greens plenty of times from the corners with my post scorer who has a 55 three point rating.

It's just that now you have to fill the meter up 100% to get a green instead of how it was before the update where you could fill it only 95% and still get a green.

Isn't this the "skill gap" that so many people wanted? Shot timing is more important right now than it has been at any previous point in 2K17.

A lot of the people who thought they "knew their shot" only knew it well enough to consistently fill the meter 95% of the way, not 100% of the way, and the game is no longer bailing out those 95% shots with free greens for having imperfect timing.

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Guys like this sum up the problem perfectly.

37% on 3s is about an average percentage in real life and equal points wise to shooting about 50% on two pointers, so still efficient enough. But because he doesn't hit at least 50% at minimum, it's suddenly "OMG CAN'T HIT ANYTHING MY SKILL IS GONE MIKE WANG U R TRASH 1/20".

I have to laugh at the people who act like their shooting was so skillful as if they found some secret Art of War tactic that the rest of us peasants couldn't possibly hope to master. Dudes, we have been ALL hitting shots too damn easy, we want it to be harder so it is more realistic, less cheesy, and there is more variety.

If everyone can hit 3s every time down the court then it becomes pointless to shoot midrange, post up, back-door cut, take a layup, etc. etc.

The fact that 3 > 2 makes long range shots overpowered as is, let alone when they are actually EASIER to hit than a layup.

I feel like I am trying to communicate with a different kind of species, let alone people with different tastes, seriously...

"Gamers" have ruined this series for actual basketball fans.

Dude.... I'm not sure if you realize this so i'm gonna give you a quick reminder...

This isn't the ****ing NBA.

This is a video game.

It's nobody's fault but 2k's that this game has become trash. I guarantee you that Online players and the twitter community think the same exact things about the OS community that you think about them.

Play some damn defense and maybe the opponent won't be hitting so many shots

[ballstreet2k]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Green releases are still possible for non-shooters to consistently achieve in the current tuning; I've gotten greens plenty of times from the corners with my post scorer who has a 55 three point rating.

It's just that now you have to fill the meter up 100% to get a green instead of how it was before the update where you could fill it only 95% and still get a green.

Isn't this the "skill gap" that so many people wanted? Shot timing is more important right now than it has been at any previous point in 2K17.

A lot of the people who thought they "knew their shot" only knew it well enough to consistently fill the meter 95% of the way, not 100% of the way, and the game is no longer bailing out those 95% shots with free greens for having imperfect timing.

That's exactly what Beluba was saying when talking about how "corrupted" many players are.

They were shooting with old 2ks' controls, getting pretty good but not perfect releases and getting greens, hell, even half bar snap greens and thinking it was because of their godly skill.

None of them is able to think, even for one second, that it was the game basically being on rookie sliders.

Now it takes real skill, those who have it can still shoot, those who don't will cry until - hopefully not - Beluba brings back the arcade chuck fest.

[jyoung]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Also with the way that people are talking and acting on social media you would think that white meter shots never go in, but in reality, they are still going in anywhere from 40% to 60% of the time depending on your ratings and how open you were.

The system that we have right now is the best shot tuning that 2K17 has had to date IMO.

Whites still go in at a reasonable rate and greens are difficult but still possible to achieve.

[DakkoN]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Dude.... I'm not sure if you realize this so i'm gonna give you a quick reminder...

This isn't the ****ing NBA.

This is a video game.

It's nobody's fault but 2k's that this game has become trash. I guarantee you that Online players and the twitter community think the same exact things about the OS community that you think about them.

Play some damn defense and maybe the opponent won't be hitting so many shots

I swear you people act like it's so cut and dry.. Hur hur play defense hur hur.. Having every single person on the court be able to shoot means that you're not allowed to help off of non-shooters for any reason, which is a staple of basketball.. Leaving open non-shooters to help on drives. Not sure why that even has to be explained to you. The way the game is when the shooting is super high means you aren't able to help off of your man for any reason because you'll get torched just because you made the right decision to help on the drive instead of having to face guard the damn glass cleaner..

[ballstreet2k]

Re: Mike Wang 4-28-17 Shooting Changes.

Also with the way that people are talking and acting on social media you would think that white meter shots never go in, but in reality, they are still going in anywhere from 40% to 60% of the time depending on your ratings and how open you were.

The system that we have right now is the best shot tuning that 2K17 has had to date IMO.

Whites still go in at a reasonable rate and greens are difficult but still possible to achieve.

To be fair, square whites seem to be missing more than stick whites with green aim. I didn't go into nba2klab level detail and the difference isn't enormous, but definitely noticed in MyTeam.

But then again, from the dev blog Beluba posted on september 1st, 2016:

Another feature we’re introducing to make shooting more of a skill is the idea of shot aiming. For perimeter jump shots, if you use the Pro Stick, you now need to pull straight down or push straight up (the latter if you want a bank shot.) Again, we didn’t want to make this addition overbearing for the average gamer, so you won’t be airballing shots left or right if you ignore the feature.

But I guess it IS overbearing for the average gamer.