Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

[jeebs9]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

You guys are still missing the point of my initial video. How many times do I have to tell you I made the correct input. I pointed my right stick away from the defender. It didn't matter, 2k had already prejudged what was going to happen and put me in an animation.

Your video, you can see the timing is off. You start to go in to the defender because you pressed left or towards the rim.

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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

2k has handled this a couple fo different ways.

2K16- Making these automatic fouls. If a guy jumped at you in the paint or on the perimeter you'd go into a 'draw the foul' animation where you would go into a shot.

2K17- Allowing the contact to happen with no call. Guys could jump at you in the the post or on the perimeter and actually cause you to stumble back and lose position with no foul call made...

So here we are at 2K18- I feel like think the new movement system has allowed us to easily side step the wild perimeter jumps and finish around guys...but the ball is tangible when going for a shot during their jumping sequence

This says it all for me. Every play can't be in favor of the offense when the offense has so much control than the defender. I don't have the option of jumping for the block and making a different input to avoid the foul. Once I hit the button, I'm committed.

The offense player can go left, go right, jump into the defender, wait, etc. For the record, why is the offense the victim? If the player didn't spin back into the defender, the defender would have sailed by. To me, the offense player has way too many options available to them to be worrying about "nerfing" blocks. Giving up the foul would be rewarding the offense a bad input.

[barond57]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

Your video, you can see the timing is off. You start to go in to the defender because you pressed left or towards the rim.

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I did not. That is the base of my argument. I made the right play but 2k rewarded the player who should have been punished for going into the air.

[GisherJohn24]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

to me it looked like the defender came down and swatted the basketball out of your hand?

[xCoachDx]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

This has been a thing for years. Same as a person being able to recover on his drive after attempting a block.

[jeebs9]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

This says it all for me. Every play can't be in favor of the offense when the offense has so much control than the defender. I don't have the option of jumping for the block and making a different input to avoid the foul. Once I hit the button, I'm committed.

The offense player can go left, go right, jump into the defender, wait, etc. For the record, why is the offense the victim? If the player didn't spin back into the defender, the defender would have sailed by. To me, the offense player has way too many options available to them to be worrying about "nerfing" blocks. Giving up the foul would be rewarding the offense a bad input.

And that's what I keep saying. But he's saying we're wrong.

I did not. That is the base of my argument. I made the right play but 2k rewarded the player who should have been punished for going into the air.

Yes you did. Because I've done it too. One of the other things you could of done is slide to the left. I practice it last night with my cousin. I'll try posting late tonight if I have a chance.

2k didn't reward him. You did. because you were in such a rush. And yes it should be a foul but as I've repeated a few times now. They had to remove the foul part. It was abused soooo badly. I remember the thread. Because I was so on the fence about whole thing. It doesn't balance things out. It makes the offense player basically rely on the move after a while. And that becomes boring farther from real life. Could you imagine someone using Rondo to do that all game long? Thank God I knew about hands up and handup contest. That would of been a foul every single time.

This 24th link shows you 2k isn't rewarding anyone here.

<div style="width: 100%; height: 0px; position: relative; padding-bottom: 56.250%;"><iframe src="https://streamable.com/s/g9wed/alqzoh" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="100%" allowfullscreen style="width: 100%; height: 100%; position: absolute;"></iframe></div>

You just can't fake and expect to go through the player for a layup.

[realtalk0131]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

And that's what I keep saying. But he's saying we're wrong.



Yes you did. Because I've done it too. One of the other things you could of done is slide to the left. I practice it last night with my cousin. I'll try posting late tonight if I have a chance.

2k didn't reward him. You did. because you were in such a rush. And yes it should be a foul but as I've repeated a few times now. They had to remove the foul part. It was abused soooo badly. I remember the thread. Because I was so on the fence about whole thing. It doesn't balance things out. It makes the offense player basically rely on the move after a while. And that becomes boring farther from real life. Could you imagine someone using Rondo to do that all game long? Thank God I knew about hands up and handup contest. That would of been a foul every single time.

This 24th link shows you 2k isn't rewarding anyone here.

<div style="width: 100%; height: 0px; position: relative; padding-bottom: 56.250%;"><iframe src="https://streamable.com/s/g9wed/alqzoh" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="100%" allowfullscreen style="width: 100%; height: 100%; position: absolute;"></iframe></div>

You just can't fake and expect to go through the player for a layup.

^^^ mannn...there is a video evidence already and yet people still trying to justify their mistake. this aint no 2k17....stick skill matters.

This thread is officially case closed.

[barond57]

This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

And that's what I keep saying. But he's saying we're wrong.



Yes you did. Because I've done it too. One of the other things you could of done is slide to the left. I practice it last night with my cousin. I'll try posting late tonight if I have a chance.

2k didn't reward him. You did. because you were in such a rush. And yes it should be a foul but as I've repeated a few times now. They had to remove the foul part. It was abused soooo badly. I remember the thread. Because I was so on the fence about whole thing. It doesn't balance things out. It makes the offense player basically rely on the move after a while. And that becomes boring farther from real life. Could you imagine someone using Rondo to do that all game long? Thank God I knew about hands up and handup contest. That would of been a foul every single time.

This 24th link shows you 2k isn't rewarding anyone here.



You just can't fake and expect to go through the player for a layup.

Again you are missing the one important factor that I have been saying. My input was not to go into him. Instead the game put me in animation that made it seem that way. You can try to blame user error but I'll put it to you like this. I play fighting games like tekken a lot, have been since the very first one. Anyway in the fighting genre there is a term called "punish" which basically means what you think it means blocking or making the opponent whiff and then attacking him for it. Now in a game like tekken there are several punish moves that could lead to juggles which require the right input to set off combos. Now back to 2k, when I'm posting up, in my mind I have like 4 different options to do depending how the defender reacts. Now again what I'm telling you is that the game squared me up for no reason other then to put me in that animation.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

Again you are missing the one important factor that I have been saying. My input was not to go into him. Instead the game put me in animation that made it seem that way. You can try to blame user error but I'll put it to you like this. I play fighting games like tekken a lot, have been since the very first one. Anyway in the fighting genre there is a term called "punish" which basically means what you think it means blocking or making the opponent whiff and then attacking him for it. Now in a game like tekken there are several punish moves that could lead to juggles which require the right input to set off combos. Now back to 2k, when I'm posting up, in my mind I have like 4 different options to do depending how the defender reacts. Now again what I'm telling you is that the game squared me up for no reason other then to put me in that animation.

I get what you're saying.

I'm a fighting game player too....which is probably why I enjoy the post game counters available....

If your input was completely ignored and you were locked into that move and block, then that's an issue. Hopefully its an issue that can be duplicated so it can be addressed.

I personally have never seen any locked sequence in the post game like that but I'm certainly not calling you a liar...if that was your experience, thats what it was.

[shayellis]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

2k has handled this a couple fo different ways.

2K16- Making these automatic fouls. If a guy jumped at you in the paint or on the perimeter you'd go into a 'draw the foul' animation where you would go into a shot.

2K17- Allowing the contact to happen with no call. Guys could jump at you in the the post or on the perimeter and actually cause you to stumble back and lose position with no foul call made...

So here we are at 2K18- I feel like think the new movement system has allowed us to easily side step the wild perimeter jumps and finish around guys...but the ball is tangible when going for a shot during their jumping sequence

I would prefer the 2k16 way without the automatic jumping into the shot part. It should be a foul but not a shooting foul, unless your actually shooting. I think you should be able to go into a shot during the foul manually by leaning the thumbstick forward and shooting. AI improvements would probably be needed to prevent the cpu from jumping at the pump fakes all game. For instance, they could program the AI to not commit to jumping on pump fakes, the more you abuse them

Also as the OP said, you cant always just move out of the way in time, if the defender is jumping like a rabbit (Especially in Pro Am) But like someone in this thread said earlier, this thread has moved from "Why is this not a foul" to "Stick skills in the post 101". Which is basically a red herring fallacy. Yes it is sometimes possible to avoid the defender falling into you, but it still doesnt address the core of the OP's concern.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

I would prefer the 2k16 way without the automatic jumping into the shot part. It should be a foul but not a shooting foul, unless your actually shooting. I think you should be able to go into a shot during the foul manually by leaning the thumbstick forward and shooting. AI improvements would probably be needed to prevent the cpu from jumping all game. For instance, they could program the AI to not commit to jumping on pump fakes, the more you do them constantly

Also as the OP said, you cant always just move out of the way in time, if the defender is jumping like a rabbit (Especially in Pro Am) But like someone in this thread said earlier, this thread has moved from "Why is this not a foul" to "Stick skills in the post 101". Which is basically a red herring fallacy. Yes it is sometimes possible to avoid the defender falling into you, but it still doesnt address the core of the OP's concern.

Actually, if you look above the OP has clarified his concern and it looks like we've come to an understanding, even if we don't agree on all fronts. It's doesnt have to be a 'if you don't 100% agree with my stance, you must think you're better than me' situation....sometimes it just takes some back and forth without being accusatory....

[shayellis]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

Actually, if you look above the OP has clarified his concern and it looks like we've come to an understanding, even if we don't agree on all fronts. It's doesnt have to be a 'if you don't 100% agree with my stance, you must think you're better than me' situation....sometimes it just takes some back and forth without being accusatory....

Correct you don't have to 100 percent agree on everything to come to an understanding. And it's cool you guys did, but it's still a fallacy regardless.

[jeebs9]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

I would prefer the 2k16 way without the automatic jumping into the shot part. It should be a foul but not a shooting foul, unless your actually shooting. I think you should be able to go into a shot during the foul manually by leaning the thumbstick forward and shooting. AI improvements would probably be needed to prevent the cpu from jumping at the pump fakes all game. For instance, they could program the AI to not commit to jumping on pump fakes, the more you abuse them

Also as the OP said, you cant always just move out of the way in time, if the defender is jumping like a rabbit (Especially in Pro Am) But like someone in this thread said earlier, this thread has moved from "Why is this not a foul" to "Stick skills in the post 101". Which is basically a red herring fallacy. Yes it is sometimes possible to avoid the defender falling into you, but it still doesnt address the core of the OP's concern.

I know this thread was basically coming to a close with the last few post. But I have to say. This isn't a AI problem. This is a human exploiting real life situations. Even though we are literally saying "this is wrong it should be a foul. But because of the past history of the application of a foul here they had to remove the foul part"..... But you guys are saying it's still wrong. We even gave you work around. And you still disagree with us.

And then finally the above in bold.... WTF?..... In real life. If I pump fake and you go in the air. And I make contact while your in the and get a shot off. It's a foul every single time. What player isn't going to shoot the ball? Going back to 2k16 would be terrible..... Last year (2k17) was ok, because nothing literally happened (but not ok). But you'd rather go back to the 2k16 foul fest? When I watch that video from 2k16. My basketball heart hurts. That guy did it for the whole game.... He switched to Kendrick at halftime.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Xsmy7tCdpdM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

Again you are missing the one important factor that I have been saying. My input was not to go into him. Instead the game put me in animation that made it seem that way.

OP, my understanding is that there are other cases where you do successfully complete the Up and Under move void of a defender falling on you.

Considering the above conditions, what would you say is your average success rate on 10 Up and Under attempts per day or week? I'm sorry to meet you at this level here but this is the story we have arrived on.

Do you have any highlights to show you succeeding with this move? In my impression, there is so much focus on how you performed during this single event that your reputation for post moves has become painted solely based off this event.

Now, some have admit they have had and perhaps continue to experience their own quirks with the post game and they toss it on the side of user skill being rewarded and punished - obviously not everyone is readily accepting to chalk up each erroneous outcome to user skill so it's very subjective which outcomes get pegged to user skill and which get pegged to game play shortcomings.

I understand both POVs and both have valid points in this thread re; the game play flaw and the user benefit: arguably both sides are at odds on which design should prevail over the other. Void of arguing who has the strongest opinions in here: I'd much prefer to find out your own analysis on this thread considering you are the OP who is suffering the situation.

A helping hand and voice of reason has been offered on occsssion and you object that it's not your fault which I'm not here to argue on you. Dismissing this single event caused by the guidance of the AI, I feel obliged to continue to ask you what is your going success rate with the Up and Under from your own experience? It seems your experience with the post game in 18 is something you're not content with in general and I believe you summed it up this way in one of your posts that it was one of the worst in the series? I can see how that opinion would offend those who hold dear to the post game nuances of 18 and in effect it creates a stir or division of wings.

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[barond57]

This needs to stop NOW!!!!'

Here's a quick reel of my skill level from 2k16

https://youtu.be/NXeeVxJQK-0

As you can see I never make my guy the tallest, and don't rely and cheap moves, I try to take posting up seriously like it's an art.

As far as the success rate, there are so many variables that go into it. If you're playing with randoms you rarely get the ball in the post. If you do get the ball it's a spam fest steal attempts, which I will give credit to 2k for atleast it finally drawing fouls while you're idle and holding the post button. Last year it didn't matter if I was waiting for guys would just poke the ball out st crazy rates. What also contributes to posting up is that it seems this year there is less consequence for guys doubling and still being able to reach their man in time if I pass it back. What I noticed this year as that there are more animations for tip passes, which is good in theory, but doesn't help with spammers. Say you get the ball in the post and an extra defender dives down spamming steal. If it try to pass it back to his man, because he's spamming steal he will be put in an animation where he tips the pass. Keep in mind, he's not going for a tip pass, he's trying to dig in but gets rewarded for spamming. Anyways when I do attempt an up and under and get my man in the air I'd say about 60% of the time its successful. But again to actually get to that point is maybe once a game.


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