Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[Kleinevos]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I wont pretend to know a good solution.

But i’m tired of seeing streches and Sharps take ridiculous contested shots because the KNOW 2k will bail them out with:
1) dimer
2) limitless
3) deep range dead eye
4) catch and shoot
And a difficult shot just because, why not.


But hey, the real shot that’s meant to beat a contest (the post fade) naaaah we’re not gonna give that badges. Not a single one.

[Baebae32]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Right, but it shouldn't feel that way. That's all I'm saying. They should be trying to replicate the feeling of being the player you're controlling.

Yes. But knocking in 3 or 4 shots with steph or any other good shooter wouldnt feel like you were in rhythm?

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Yes. But knocking in 3 or 4 shots with steph or any other good shooter wouldnt feel like you were in rhythm?

Not at all. It's a video game lol, so you can't actually feel what the player is feeling. You can observe that they've made a few shots, but you don't know if that's making them more confident, or if those shots felt great to them as soon as they left their hands. That's why the visual cues (to me) could be a good thing; they can help you get into the mind of the player a little more. Obviously I'm not referring to the way things are currently implemented in the game, but the way they could be.

I assume you've played basketball in real life? Haven't you ever been playing, and your shot just feels on that day? Where every time you shoot, your motion just feels perfect? Or every pass you throw goes exactly where you want it to go? That's the kind of thing I want to be represented here.

[Baebae32]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Not at all. It's a video game lol, so you can't actually feel what the player is feeling. You can observe that they've made a few shots, but you don't know if that's making them more confident, or if those shots felt great to them as soon as they left their hands. That's why the visual cues (to me) could be a good thing; they can help you get into the mind of the player a little more. Obviously I'm not referring to the way things are currently implemented in the game, but the way they could be.

I assume you've played basketball in real life? Haven't you ever been playing, and your shot just feels on that day? Where every time you shoot, your motion just feels perfect? Or every pass you throw goes exactly where you want it to go? That's the kind of thing I want to be represented here.

Trust me i can understand what you are you saying and i understand the case for visual cues. My thinking against the need for visual cues is that they come off as too video game-y for my liking. Its just a preference. M


Yes. I have played basketball in both college and professionally (getting to ready to head to training camp in a few weeks).

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Lol the mathematics are the limits faced by this being a video game. Its all a bunch of code

I don’t understand why people need all these visual cues.

Basketball, real basketball, doesn’t have visual clues to let guys know when or how to do something, they just “feel” it.

If you can’t feel the rhythm of the game, maybe that would be all the skills gap needed.
There are plenty of people in this community that can feel the rhythm of the game without unnecessary visual aids.



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[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I don’t understand why people need all these visual cues.

Basketball, real basketball, doesn’t have visual clues to let guys know when or how to do something, they just “feel” it.

If you can’t feel the rhythm of the game, maybe that would be all the skills gap needed.
There are plenty of people in this community that can feel the rhythm of the game without unnecessary visual aids.



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There is no feeling of rhythm in the game. That's the point. It's just a bunch of code; there is no possible way to get into the player's head in a video game. A visual cue can let the player say, "Hey, I'm feeling it right now." It doesn't have to provide a stat boost or anything unrealistic.

I think that's where the disconnect is; everyone equates anything on the screen with an increase in ratings because that's what they've done in the past. That's not at all what I want.

[Housh123]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I think knowing you’re release should be KING. I never want to see a 2k where just because your open you get a boost. With that said Swante from YouTube has a good system. Smother and heavily contested shots should get in 1% of the time. If you shoot 100 you should hit 1 TOPS.


Medium and light contests should be barely affected but still only sharps should even hit those with any consistency. This system will make it so ppl who know their release AND get open will have higher %s. In 2k18 i really felt like bad shooters could go off on heavy contests consistently. I saw too many YouTube videos of sharps being HEAVILY contested and GREENING. To me that is game breaking and crazy


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[SonicMage]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

There is no feeling of rhythm in the game. That's the point. It's just a bunch of code; there is no possible way to get into the player's head in a video game. A visual cue can let the player say, "Hey, I'm feeling it right now." It doesn't have to provide a stat boost or anything unrealistic.

I think that's where the disconnect is; everyone equates anything on the screen with an increase in ratings because that's what they've done in the past. That's not at all what I want.

If the only purpose is to merely inform about hot or cold streaks without any actual changes on the player, then those icons should only exist in a menu like the substitution screen and/or box score. The reason the floating icons are there now is because they mean stat increases or decreases. In general, people don't like floating icons because it means distracting visual clutter, just look at all the debates about the shot meters. So really, they should only exist if absolutely necessary.

[Housh123]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Idk about you but i know when I’m in a good shooting rhythm. Iv gone 10/10 in the pro am from 3 before on my stretch playmaker.

I don’t need a visual aid to tell me when I’m more likely to hit a shot


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[Cavs2016]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

The only reason they dance on you, is because the nba doesnt allow people to play defense on guys like this, if guys could play defense on those guys like they played defense in the 80's prior, and even the 90's, they wouldnt be as successful of players.

Oh please they barely contested jumpers back then. Go watch any Michael Jordan game and watch how many uncontested jumpers he concedes to decent shooters.

[mfdoom911e]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

The problem with there not being any visual cue is that there is no other way to know how your player is "feeling". In real life, I might be feeling my shot just by shooting around in warmups. There are times when you're just on, and you can feel it. Even without having to make 2-3 shots in a row.

I normally use this clip when talking about commentary and crowds, but it applies here:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tyd4NPvzKQg" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lebron is on fire here, making every shot he takes, from whatever distance, with any defense. Then he misses two straight free throws. But he is still feeling his shot, and immediately takes a deep, contested three, and continues to be hot until a timeout is called.

The way you're describing, though, you're not getting that "feeling" that the player has. It's just being methodical; I hit two shots in a row, maybe I can make another. I missed a shot, maybe I'm not feeling it anymore.

In real life, a guy might make a ridiculously contested shot at the end of the shot clock, or trying to draw a foul, and that's what wakes him up and starts his hot run. But if he can't make a well contested shot to begin with because he wasn't already in rhythm, you can't replicate it in-game.

Imagine that... the players shooting doesnt have a shot meter/green release indicator to rely one.. how about we go back to that thing again.

I do have a suggestion though and yes i will still push the "no shot meter" in 2k19, just muscle memory or player animation to rely on. coz we all asking realistically...right.

now, how bout a vibration from controller to know that your in rhythm and hot. if you made 2 shot consecutively your joystick start to vibrate every time you take a shot but at the same time you have to time that vibration to be still in rhythm, and once you missed, that vibration is gone and so your "takeover". but here is the catch this would only work if there is no shot meter coz then there is no point of green release and vibration.

you want that real NBA feel with excitement not knowing if your shot will go in or not this is the best option in my opinion.

Again my opinion..

[olajuwon34]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Oh please they barely contested jumpers back then. Go watch any Michael Jordan game and watch how many uncontested jumpers he concedes to decent shooters.

Im talking about the way they over dribble now to create all they're shots, back then the defender was right on you hand checking and they allowed way more contact on jumpshots then, now you barely touch a jumpshooter, (who most the time just creates the contact) or hand check him while he's dribbling , and its an auto foul, especially on guys like curry, harden.

[Keith01]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Posted this another thread but thought i should open a separate one.



While i understand your point it dismisses the art and skill of making difficult shots that basketball’s greats make look routine. People make contested shots in the NBA. Of course NBA offenses are designed to look for contested shots but the best players can make them. The challenge from a video game perspective is in what scope should this part of the real life sport be incorporated into our game? I think allowing guys to convert on contested looks more reliably once they are in rhythm (takeover system) is a good start.

Simplistic example:
A sharpshooter converts on three open 3 point attempts in the span of 5 or 6 possessions. It is safe to say he would be in rhythm. And lets say he is now able to green release on contested looks now. The timing window for these greens should be very very small but possible. And if a guy is able to convert, he keeps his rhythm going and has the possibility to green the next contested look.

But now lets say he gets too overconfident, forces and misses a couple of bad shots (read contested) in a row (again keeping in mind that the ability to make these shots should be due to an extremely small timing window). This guy would now be out of rhythm.

Now this is where the strategy (game design) comes in. In my opinion you should NOT be able to know via an on screen visual cue whether you are in rhythm (takeover) or not in rhythm. And this is how you replicate the heat check. Lets say you make a few open shots in a short time frame. Players would then face the dilemma of:
Ive made a couple of shots via getting open now do j want to force a shot because i think im in rhythm (have a higher chance of converting a contested look) or do i want to continue to play good team ball and just try and get another open look. Again keeping in mind you wouldnt know via an onscreen visual cue whether or not you were in rhythm and therefore even had the chance to make that 35 foot step back jumper with two guys on you (hyperbole) until you actually took the shot.

Situation 2:
Ive made 2 and then missed 2 of these contested, forced jumpers. Do i want to force another one to see if im still in rhythm or do i want to now focus again on generating an open shot via team offense. And this is how you create guys shooting their team out of the game. You dont let them know that their cold with an onscreen cue you let them or their teammates figure it out because they continue to force and miss shots.

From a defensive perspective this would force you to:
1. Clamp down on great shooters and shot makers to not allow them to get into a rhythm
2. If a guy does get into rhythm and is now making contested shots, do you send a double? Or do you play the percentages and wait for the guy to revert back to the mean.

In summation:
1. Knocking in a high percentage of open looks should allow guys to get into a shooting rhythm that would allow them to make contested shots

2. The timing window for knocking in contested shot should be very small and would generate your skill gap

3. There should NOT be any visual cues to let people know that they are in rhythm (takeover) or when they have fallen out of rhythm

4. The timeframe for being in rhythm (takeover) could vary within each game based on: (A) actual game time (2 minutes), (B) number of offensive possessions, or (C) your efficiency on the contested shots ( you have to make 2 of 3 to keep it going and then it resets, make 2 in a row and then it resets.)

5. On point 4, this would create a game within the game. Does my team want to allot 5 possessions to one guy taking contested shots to see if he can keep it going ( if based on B). We think we have a guy that has it going (takeover) do we want him to get his next shot up as quickly as possible to utilize his takeover time frame (if based on A). Or, this guy has made 2 of his 3 contested shots this game do you go to him again to see if he still has it going (if based on C).
-This is where you create the crazy steph curry 17 points in 3 minutes vs the kobe knocking in contested shots all game hotstreaks.
6. On points 4 & 5 Again all this is all under the hood stuff and would NOT be on screen.

In my opinion, this is how you merge the sim (allowing a good shooter to get open and get it going does not bode well for your team) and the video game (your ability to knock in the contested shots you see your favorite player make on the tv is based on your stick skills and shot timing.). All under the game mechanics of you wont be able to make these shots reliably all game but we will not tell you when you can and cannot (on screen cues)

Just some thoughts I had. Open to critiques and criticism. Would like to hear you alls opinions. Typed this on my phone so apologies for the formatting.

I think your ideas are good but at the end of the day 2K needs to err on the side of punishing contested shot a lot. If players don't have the 'difficult shots' badge, it should be difficult to make contested shots. And they should scrap all 'deadeye' badges. Contested shots should rarely make, like 1 out of 10. It really shouldn't be that hard for 2K. It's one of the most simple yet impactful basketball logic - if open make it, if covered miss it more often than not + factor in shot ratings of course. But @Beluba needs to stop polling Twitter noobs and just stick with a Sim formula. This isn't something that should change every year, it's basic / fundamental basketball logic that should've already been decided years ago within the game.

[triplechin]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I'm not a fan of hot streaks, cold streaks, rhythms, etc. I think it is just a psychological thing we attribute making shots to after the fact. Esp at the NBA level.

IMO, the contested shot rating should simply be that a 99 rating means you get no penalty for being contested, and then appropriately hand out the ratings from there. So it would just be a sort of multiplier on your regular shot rating. Perhaps you'd have to have lightly contested, moderately contested, heavily contested ratings instead of one blanket one. IDK who the best contested shooter is, maybe KD? So he would have a 75-80 rating and everyone else would be lower. The defender's contest ratings could also effect this formula.

That would at least be a simple base and then you can add layers to that to get a more organic feel to the game if needed.

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

heres my stance on this issue, dead eye on ever build aka demi gods is what broke 2k15, and ever since then 2k has had broken shooting, i understand in real nba they can score in peoples faces, but this is a video game there has to be a skill gap, and i think the skill gap should reward those who can get open shots, not those who time heavily contested shots, with that said im not saying dont reward timing, no timing still needs to take skill for skill gap, but they should reward openness on shot more than equate timing percentage into the formula....

now about dead eye, i hate it, it rewards people to take contested shots, there should be a anti dead eye badge called knock down shooter that rewards people who take wide open shots