Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

didnt they already have this under your VIP stats? i think you'd see these stats in the load up screen.

I dont use a shot meter but do turn on shot feedback.

Not since NBA 2K10 maybe? In online PNO, it used to be part of the loading screen.

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I'm going to presume that misunderstood what he wrote. There's NOTHING realistic about a player waiting for a defender to come out and contest their shot....

exactly i had a feeling only real ballers would understand while cheesers who exploit it reach for that so and so player does it so 2k has to do it... in real life no one would rather take a contested shot over a wide open one, but in 2k you get rewarded for taking contested shots and punished for wide open ones, thats why 2ks shooting is fundamentally flawed at its core, but i dont expect cheesers to understand why real ballers dont like it

[triplechin]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

The dirty little secret is that NBA players shoot a far better percentage on contested shots than you think, shoot a far worse percentage on open shots than you think, and miss far more shots in the paint than you think.

That data is available and it may surprise some. Even top shooters like Curry are NOT dropping 60% on open threes. In fact only a bare few hit 50% on open threes. Only elite finishers are hitting 60% in the paint. And the different between contested and open shooting percentages on threes is often only 8-10%.

Checked a few players.

KD is 57% on open 3s and 37% on contested.

Steph is 47% open and 31-41% contested.

Klay 51% open and 16-33% contested.

LeBron 42% open and 32% contested.

JR 38% open and 31% contested.

Idk what others expect but Im cool with these percentages. Obviously there is a lot more nuance like volume and quality of those contested shots but it's a good starting point.

[mfdoom911e]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

when my friend who never been good at 2k in his life until this year cause hes a pure sharp, tells me this when i ask why the F did you wait so long to shoot that wide open shot? he no lie said to me " i have a 99 contested 3 so i waited for him to contest me before i shot it so i can green" i reply to him yeah its not obvious you dont know anything about basketball or anything ya F'in newb, this is what needs to be fixed in 2k, bums are that know nothing about bball benefit from current shooting system, not people who actually know how to get open shots

Imagine there is no shot meter nor green this whole sentence will be different.
i dare people to talk smack without a guide(its almost like cheating having a guide when to release a shot thats why i never favour with this from the start)

people discuss about all this ratings and badges but dont address what make this all easy for a player to make a shot is bcoz of this F shot meter and green release guiding them they are to scared to mentioned such thing bcoz they(mostly online players) afraid that their win record will not defend in any of the ratings or whatever badges, especially all the money they spent upgrading their players, but on how they actually played the game. im not saying all of those are not important it still add percentage on "make shot" but removing this guide will test every player stick skills plus it will add excitement to the game not knowing the end result. Not like when someone shoots a three and its green release, you already know it will count before the ball went to the basket..like seriously thats realistic competitive basketball to you people.

Again my opinion.

[Keith01]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Checked a few players.

KD is 57% on open 3s and 37% on contested.

Steph is 47% open and 31-41% contested.

Klay 51% open and 16-33% contested.

LeBron 42% open and 32% contested.

JR 38% open and 31% contested.

Idk what others expect but Im cool with these percentages. Obviously there is a lot more nuance like volume and quality of those contested shots but it's a good starting point.

It's a videogame though where the players themselves control the dynamics and probability of stuff and success rate of stuff. Also gotta take into account context and advanced stats. How many of those NBA players' contested shots were vs low-"rated" or undersized defenders? I think all the ratings and all the basketball logic should be factored in, but at the end of the day, a game should not REWARD contested looks. What's the point of playing defense if it does.

[Dione2014]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It's a videogame though where the players themselves control the dynamics and probability of stuff and success rate of stuff. Also gotta take into account context and advanced stats. How many of those NBA players' contested shots were vs low-"rated" or undersized defenders? I think all the ratings and all the basketball logic should be factored in, but at the end of the day, a game should not REWARD contested looks. What's the point of playing defense if it does.

Not to mention those metrics are loose with the way they count contested shots. Shots count as contested even if the defender is just standing there without his hand up. As long as he's within 4 feet it counts as a contest by the measurement they use with that stat.

[T.B]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It's a videogame though where the players themselves control the dynamics and probability of stuff and success rate of stuff. Also gotta take into account context and advanced stats. How many of those NBA players' contested shots were vs low-"rated" or undersized defenders? I think all the ratings and all the basketball logic should be factored in, but at the end of the day, a game should not REWARD contested looks. What's the point of playing defense if it does.

There is no reward . Individual ratings along with other factors determine success. Contested by using the right stick is weak anyways but it's mainly what people use. Jumping to meet the player at the apex of the shot will lower the percentage of all shots no matter the rating

[stillfeelme]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It's a videogame though where the players themselves control the dynamics and probability of stuff and success rate of stuff. Also gotta take into account context and advanced stats. How many of those NBA players' contested shots were vs low-"rated" or undersized defenders? I think all the ratings and all the basketball logic should be factored in, but at the end of the day, a game should not REWARD contested looks. What's the point of playing defense if it does.

The game should not reward a contested shot unless you shoot better contested vs. open and the level of contesting. It is actually really hard to tightly contest 3's in real life since you have give the shooter a place to land, rip moves.

A normal tightly contested is a defender 2-4 ft away. KD shot 139 threes this way and was 38%. He also shot 181 open threes 4-6 ft from a defender for 38%. When KD is wide open 6 ft away from a defender he shot 84 threes for 57%. There are levels to contesting but shooting a very tight contested shot I am talking 0-2 ft up in the shooter's face should always be a bad shot that is my opinion.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

The more and more I read this thread, the more I'm really starting to lean towards removing instant feedback and shot meter from the online modes. Put the accountability on the user to LEARN how to play the game, then give them feedback and viewable stats to review AFTER the game is over. People who use random teams in PNO need to realize that they're a very small minority, and they just need to utilize the practice modes.

EDIT: Viewable stats meaning that you can view your shot summary at the end of the game where it show you the feedback on that shot and give you a total summary of your overall performance. For example:

80% Open
10% Heavily Contested
5% Lightly Contested
5% Smothered

20% Excellent Release
70% Early Release
10% Late Release

These stats would indicate to the player that they did a great job of getting open, but was rushing the shot when they got the ball.

It sounds good in theory, but that's not realistic. You'd have to be able to remember every shot you took, and even then, this doesn't break down which shots were early, late, contested, open, etc. It just tells you how many of each.

Not to mention in real life, you know immediately after shooting if something was off with your form. That's why having the meter in real time is realistic; it shouldn't guarantee a make, but the feedback is a realistic representation of that feel that is not possible to emulate in a video game.


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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Not to mention in real life, you know immediately after shooting if something was off with your form. That's why having the meter in real time is realistic; it shouldn't guarantee a make, but the feedback is a realistic representation of that feel that is not possible to emulate in a video game.


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I really hate this statement. When people say this do these people actually play real basketball in real life? Like, did they actually pick up a basketball and played the game with four other people against five other people?

The shot meter is in no shape or form a representation of real life. Period. In real life, you shoot the ball, and either the shot goes in or it doesn't. I have taken shots that felt good upon release, but didn't go in. I have taken bad shots which went in although my form was ugly. Do you want to know what's the common denominator in both those situations? I didn't know the results of my shot until the ball got to the rim.

You have a controller in your hand. You're going to tell me that when you press the button or pull up/down the stick, you have no clue if you FELT like the shot with early or late without a stupid meter or feedback telling you???

Real talk. No one needs the meter or even the feedback system. Like real life, either you know how shoot or you don't. If you don't know how to shoot, then practice makes perfect.

[mfdoom911e]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It sounds good in theory, but that's not realistic. You'd have to be able to remember every shot you took, and even then, this doesn't break down which shots were early, late, contested, open, etc. It just tells you how many of each.

Not to mention in real life, you know immediately after shooting if something was off with your form. That's why having the meter in real time is realistic; it shouldn't guarantee a make, but the feedback is a realistic representation of that feel that is not possible to emulate in a video game.


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not to sound against you bu not having a meter and shooting from muscle memory is the closest to real basketball game. it will never represent a realistic basketball experience if that meter is always there to guide you. you basically have a premonition knowing the ball will go in before it hit the rim.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I hope Mike Wang starts video game Armageddon and takes out the shot meter for good in online modes.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I really hate this statement. When people say this do these people actually play real basketball in real life? Like, did they actually pick up a basketball and played the game with four other people against five other people?

The shot meter is in no shape or form a representation of real life. Period. In real life, you shoot the ball, and either the shot goes in or it doesn't. I have taken shots that felt good upon release, but didn't go in. I have taken bad shots which went in although my form was ugly. Do you want to know what's the common denominator in both those situations? I didn't know the results of my shot until the ball got to the rim.

You have a controller in your hand. You're going to tell me that when you press the button or pull up/down the stick, you have no clue if you FELT like the shot with early or late without a stupid meter or feedback telling you???

Real talk. No one needs the meter or even the feedback system. Like real life, either you know how shoot or you don't. If you don't know how to shoot, then practice makes perfect.

I play basketball all the time. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. You cannot represent the feeling of shooting the ball with a controller, period. Counting to .75 seconds while moving your thumb is nowhere near the same thing.

I said that the shot meter should not determine shot success. It should be there as a visual cue to represent the feeling of the shot, since you cannot feel the shooting motion with a controller.

In real life, when I miss a shot, I can tell you what I did wrong. I used my off hand too much, I didn't flick my wrist enough, I had a bad grip on the ball, etc. It's not just the ball goes in or it doesn't. There's a reason. And if you know that part of your form is going to be off for that shot, you can adjust the other parts based on that. Whether I need to speed up my motion because the shot clock is expiring or a defender is closing out, or I have to put more arch on the shot to get over a defender, or I need to take a little off because I'm shooting from the elbow, or put a little more on to bank it, I can adjust to make it happen.

But maybe the disconnect is the mode we're talking about. I'm only talking about standard games where you're controlling all five players on a team, not using your My Player. Every player has different shooting mechanics, so timing and muscle memory aren't the same.


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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I play basketball all the time. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. You cannot represent the feeling of shooting the ball with a controller, period. Counting to .75 seconds while moving your thumb is nowhere near the same thing.

I said that the shot meter should not determine shot success. It should be there as a visual cue to represent the feeling of the shot, since you cannot feel the shooting motion with a controller.

In real life, when I miss a shot, I can tell you what I did wrong. I used my off hand too much, I didn't flick my wrist enough, I had a bad grip on the ball, etc. It's not just the ball goes in or it doesn't. There's a reason. And if you know that part of your form is going to be off for that shot, you can adjust the other parts based on that. Whether I need to speed up my motion because the shot clock is expiring or a defender is closing out, or I have to put more arch on the shot to get over a defender, or I need to take a little off because I'm shooting from the elbow, or put a little more on to bank it, I can adjust to make it happen.

But maybe the disconnect is the mode we're talking about. I'm only talking about standard games where you're controlling all five players on a team, not using your My Player. Every player has different shooting mechanics, so timing and muscle memory aren't the same.


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I mainly play PNO, and ProAm is my second mode. From my perspective, if I can go into the practice mode to learn the releases for my Pacers team and comfortably use them without the shot meter, then people can do the same. Especially if they're mainly a MyPlayer user. Shooting is a muscle memory and not a visual cue. The shot meter is a visual cue. Using the button or shot stick is muscle memory.

Like in real life, you practice your shooting in an gym. When you're playing the game, your form is changing, because you're adapting your shooting to dynamic situations. The shot meter fills, and you release. That's it. Watch the meter and release. There's nothing dynamic about that.

I've messed with the shot meter recently, so I can see how addictive it can be to get green releases. However, a shot meter is not necessary to have in the big overall picture.

[El_Poopador]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I mainly play PNO, and ProAm is my second mode. From my perspective, if I can go into the practice mode to learn the releases for my Pacers team and comfortably use them without the shot meter, then people can do the same. Especially if they're mainly a MyPlayer user. Shooting is a muscle memory and not a visual cue. The shot meter is a visual cue. Using the button or shot stick is muscle memory.

Like in real life, you practice your shooting in an gym. When you're playing the game, your form is changing, because you're adapting your shooting to dynamic situations. The shot meter fills, and you release. That's it. Watch the meter and release. There's nothing dynamic about that.

I've messed with the shot meter recently, so I can see how addictive it can be to get green releases. However, a shot meter is not necessary to have in the big overall picture.

But that dynamic shooting motion literally cannot be replicated with a controller. Do you shoot in real life by pulling your thumb down and letting it go after a second? It's not even close to the same thing.

The meter doesn't change the release timing in the game; it is simply a way for the game to say, "your form was off on that shot." In real life you can feel it because you're the one with the ball in your hands, and you know your own shooting motion. In the game, the "proper" release point for each animation is decided by the game, not the player. So even if I'm consistent with my release, it may not be the "correct" timing. But there's no way to know that without some sort of visual cue.

Again, I'm not saying that a green release should be an automatic make. It should only be a way for the game to say your form was correct.


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