Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I mean when I watch NBA, unless they have an off night, I see good shooters hitting most of their open shots. I too have a love-hate relationship with this game too, cuz sometimes i'm shocked at hitting a contested shot and other times i'm baffled at how I missed a wide open/good release 3pt attempt three times in a row with CJ McCollum. Granted that doesn't happen often at all, but that one sent me off the deep end lol. I just want a game with shooting that doesn't "cost" me, so to speak. I don't mind missing a good shot every now and then, but majority of the time when I pick my shots right(open/wide open), with the right players(that are good shooters), have good timing, ect, I should be rewared. I think that's nothing more than fair...especially in such a competitive game like this.

You watch the NBA but do you keep a track of the stats? We'll simply say Curry is one of the best shooters in the league; I've included a chart. I personally would like to replicate the actual NBA experience. To clarify, I'm saying that I love that I can get sort of the same feeling playing 2k as watching the NBA. I love that I miss wide open shots and love that I can make contested shots because that's how it is in the real NBA. I actually hate it when I'm making all my wide open shots on Hall of Fame. If I'm seeing 3/3 or 5/5 on three points shots during the first quarter or first half even with Curry, it just doesn't feel "right."



Wide-open 3s and ranking how each NBA team fared at making defenses pay

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/wide-open-3s-and-ranking-how-each-nba-team-fared-at-making-defenses-pay/

Team as a whole (2016 Season), the Warriors were #1 (43.7%); Memphis was #30 (34%). Not even Curry's open shots were guaranteed (2017-2018 season graphic below).

Warriors: #1 (2016 Season)
43.7 percent on wide-open 3-pointers, 39.4 percent of their 3-point attempts

Blazers: #7 (2016 Season)
40.1 percent on wide-open 3-pointers, 39.7 percent of their 3-point attempts

Memphis: #30 (2016 Season)
34 percent on wide-open 3-pointers, 42.1 percent of their 3-point attempts


https://stats.nba.com/player/201939/shots-dash/

if y'all want to hit bad shots vs computer play rookie mode, im starting to think people that advocate dead eye badge shooting style, are just not very good at basketball, sorry but it needs to be said

i just hope 2k dont let offline wishlist bleed into online wishlist, cause thats what seems to be the problem with 2k these past couple years it seems

You can hit plenty of bad shots versus the computer on Hall of Fame -- I've tasted HOF once during NBA 2k16 and never looked back. I personally just play the game with real teams and real players, don't even care about badges. I use random teams as well; I don't even care to study who's a three point threat and who specializes in what; I figure that out as I go along. HOF default slider 12 minutes.

From my understanding (i.e. reading threads on this forum, it's always, always the other way around where the online crowd or twitter/youtube complainers that pushes for patches to the game that meets their "norm" (i.e. the need to make "all" their wide open shots, the need to make all their layups, etc. etc. etc.)

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

You watch the NBA but do you keep a track of the stats? We'll simply say Curry is one of the best shooters in the league; I've included a chart. I personally would like to replicate the actual NBA experience. To clarify, I'm saying that I love that I can get sort of the same feeling playing 2k as watching the NBA. I love that I miss wide open shots and love that I can make contested shots because that's how it is in the real NBA. I actually hate it when I'm making all my wide open shots on Hall of Fame. If I'm seeing 3/3 or 5/5 on three points shots during the first quarter or first half even with Curry, it just doesn't feel "right."



Wide-open 3s and ranking how each NBA team fared at making defenses pay

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/wide-open-3s-and-ranking-how-each-nba-team-fared-at-making-defenses-pay/

Team as a whole (2016 Season), the Warriors were #1 (43.7%); Memphis was #30 (34%). Not even Curry's open shots were guaranteed (2017-2018 season graphic below).

Warriors: #1 (2016 Season)
43.7 percent on wide-open 3-pointers, 39.4 percent of their 3-point attempts

Blazers: #7 (2016 Season)
40.1 percent on wide-open 3-pointers, 39.7 percent of their 3-point attempts

Memphis: #30 (2016 Season)
34 percent on wide-open 3-pointers, 42.1 percent of their 3-point attempts







You can hit plenty of bad shots versus the computer on Hall of Fame -- I've tasted HOF once during NBA 2k16 and never looked back. I personally just play the game with real teams and real players, don't even care about badges. I use random teams as well; I don't even care to study who's a three point threat and who specializes in what; I figure that out as I go along. HOF default slider 12 minutes.

From my understanding (i.e. reading threads on this forum, it's always, always the other way around where the online crowd or twitter/youtube complainers that pushes for patches to the game that meets their "norm" (i.e. the need to make "all" their wide open shots, the need to make all their layups, etc. etc. etc.)

im not oblivious of the separation of wants from 2k that differ from offline and online players, easy answer is separate sliders, i cant comment on anything hall of fame this or than anything that involves A.I. well i could but im not qualified to give you an expert opinion on it, but when it comes to competitive online play im an expert

not trying to beat a dead horse here, online community that isnt kids that wanna green contested 3's on christmas, the real comp community wants to be rewarded for knowing how to get open, and rewarded on Defense for knowing how to stop other people from getting open

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

im not oblivious of the separation of wants from 2k that differ from offline and online players, easy answer is separate sliders, i cant comment on anything hall of fame this or than anything that involves A.I. well i could but im not qualified to give you an expert opinion on it, but when it comes to competitive online play im an expert

not trying to beat a dead horse here, online community that isnt kids that wanna green contested 3's on christmas, the real comp community wants to be rewarded for knowing how to get open, and rewarded on Defense for knowing how to stop other people from getting open

I thought they already did have separate online versus offline slider sets.

Note: I personally don't play online; I remain offline and want the NBA experience.

(1) Just for the sake of clarification for the competition camp, do you guys/gals want 100% makes on open shots and always misses on contested shots?
(2) Do you guys use real NBA teams with 4 quarters with "normal" NBA final scores?
(3) If the answer to the first question is YES, then does that mean you guys/gals want to see scores of 100 - 0 (shooting percentage of 0%) if you are able to play complete lockdown all contested defense plus wide open shots? .... because that would be absolutely rewarding and an ego boost. I can completely shut down my opponent.
(4) Is that basically the "want" for the online competitive scene?
(5) If that is the "want" would it be appropriate to call that competitive scene simcade (simulation on the court player interactions but with arcade elements mixed in. 100% shot makes with open shots and 100% misses with all contested shots).

[Comduklakis]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Not all, but most. Irl unless they are having some off night where they are just plain cold, top shooters are nailing most of their open shots. That's facts i'm sure you know. I don't mind missing once and a while...that's realistic. But when i'm wide open/good release, I should be able to nail most of my shots with knockdown shooters.

it's not a fact. the data is out there. no one is hitting 60% of open threes. Very few hit even 50%.

that's the disconnect between sim offline players like me and online players. I get it. Online guys want what they do to have a significant impact on success. So if you hit the timing, the release and it's open you figure you should hit it. Sim guys like me point to the fact that Steph Curry doesn't hit over 50% of his open threes. It's a desire for realism on one side vs. a desire for "stick skills" to be the most important thing on the other.

And I don't know 2k can ever find a balance that pleases everyone.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

it's not a fact. the data is out there. no one is hitting 60% of open threes. Very few hit even 50%.

that's the disconnect between sim offline players like me and online players. I get it. Online guys want what they do to have a significant impact on success. So if you hit the timing, the release and it's open you figure you should hit it. Sim guys like me point to the fact that Steph Curry doesn't hit over 50% of his open threes. It's a desire for realism on one side vs. a desire for "stick skills" to be the most important thing on the other.

And I don't know 2k can ever find a balance that pleases everyone.

They can. They just need need to ignore people's complaints about not hitting 90% of their open shots. NBA stats don't support the high percentage...period. Dudes be acting like they be hitting 100% of their shots in real life.

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I really hate this statement. When people say this do these people actually play real basketball in real life? Like, did they actually pick up a basketball and played the game with four other people against five other people?

The shot meter is in no shape or form a representation of real life. Period. In real life, you shoot the ball, and either the shot goes in or it doesn't. I have taken shots that felt good upon release, but didn't go in. I have taken bad shots which went in although my form was ugly. Do you want to know what's the common denominator in both those situations? I didn't know the results of my shot until the ball got to the rim.

You have a controller in your hand. You're going to tell me that when you press the button or pull up/down the stick, you have no clue if you FELT like the shot with early or late without a stupid meter or feedback telling you???

Real talk. No one needs the meter or even the feedback system. Like real life, either you know how shoot or you don't. If you don't know how to shoot, then practice makes perfect.

I don’t get the people that say that you can’t “feel” when you’ve released a good shot or can’t “feel” when you’re in a rhythm.
Maybe “you” can’t and that’s why “you” are crying for help.
The shot meter, boosts, and badges etc cater to less skilled lower basketball IQ players.
This is what makes people ask for a skills gap because all of those things take the skills gap away!

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

As long as release timing is included in the formula for shot success, this argument will never end.

Mastering a player's release rewards video game strategy over basketball strategy. It's one of the main reasons I rarely play online.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[T.B]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I mean when I watch NBA, unless they have an off night, I see good shooters hitting most of their open shots. I too have a love-hate relationship with this game too, cuz sometimes i'm shocked at hitting a contested shot and other times i'm baffled at how I missed a wide open/good release 3pt attempt three times in a row with CJ McCollum. Granted that doesn't happen often at all, but that one sent me off the deep end lol. I just want a game with shooting that doesn't "cost" me, so to speak. I don't mind missing a good shot every now and then, but majority of the time when I pick my shots right(open/wide open), with the right players(that are good shooters), have good timing, ect, I should be rewared. I think that's nothing more than fair...especially in such a competitive game like this.

You should never be shocked that you made a contested shot because there is a rating for it on each individual player. It's like using James Harden versus using Isaiah Cannon one of them has a high contested shot the other one will brick

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I don’t get the people that say that you can’t “feel” when you’ve released a good shot or can’t “feel” when you’re in a rhythm.
Maybe “you” can’t and that’s why “you” are crying for help.
The shot meter, boosts, and badges etc cater to less skilled lower basketball IQ players.
This is what makes people ask for a skills gap because all of those things take the skills gap away!

Crying for help? I don't want the shot meter in the game...

[awg811]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I have maybe 4 hours per week to play video games. Not just 2k, but all games. I know tons of people with the same time constraints. 30 minutes per player on a 12 man roster is essentially a week and a half just to learn shot timing by your estimate.



I don't think it's a small minority, but even assuming it is, you're essentially saying you have to pick one team to play with if you want to play online.



My point here was that I play with completely different releases offline than what is forced online. In many cases, different players as well, because trades and free agent signings in my personal franchise aren't reflected online either. So even if I spend the time practicing offline and learning the timings, it won't help once I go online and the animations are different.




I would prefer to not have the timing be included at all. When I play offline, I use ratings only, because I like having the player ratings and shot quality be the deciding factors.

But if they are going to force the release timing on us, I prefer having feedback to let us know if we got it wrong.



Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

So because you don’t have the time it takes to become good, 2k should make it easier for you to compete with guys that are good and take the time to become good? That is essentially what you are saying.
Real basketball isn’t just something everyone is good at. NBA players spend their entire lives to become what they are. Some guy that spends an hour a week playing pick up games is never going to compete with someone that’s spent their entire life practicing and working to become the best player they can be.
Time spent playing the game isn’t the be all and end all of being good. Everyone here, that plays online, knows this is the case. We’ve all played against guys that spend their every waking moment playing the game and a lot of the time they are still no better than someone that just picked it up for the first time.
Asking for all of this artificial help seems to suggest a lot.
It all comes down to, I don’t have the time to necessary to become as good as those better than me and I want help so that I can be.
I’ll never be as good as some of the greats at any game for two main reasons.
1. I don’t have the time it takes to become that good, to learn all of the intricacies of the games mechanics.
And 2, maybe I’m just not as skilled.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Thrustie]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I thought they already did have separate online versus offline slider sets.

Note: I personally don't play online; I remain offline and want the NBA experience.

(1) Just for the sake of clarification for the competition camp, do you guys/gals want 100% makes on open shots and always misses on contested shots?
(2) Do you guys use real NBA teams with 4 quarters with "normal" NBA final scores?
(3) If the answer to the first question is YES, then does that mean you guys/gals want to see scores of 100 - 0 (shooting percentage of 0%) if you are able to play complete lockdown all contested defense plus wide open shots? .... because that would be absolutely rewarding and an ego boost. I can completely shut down my opponent.
(4) Is that basically the "want" for the online competitive scene?
(5) If that is the "want" would it be appropriate to call that competitive scene simcade (simulation on the court player interactions but with arcade elements mixed in. 100% shot makes with open shots and 100% misses with all contested shots).

I would be surprised if most online players want that. I certainly don’t. It wouldn’t even look like real basketball.

Honestly, I don’t think it would make sense online to purely replicate NBA shooting percentages because the gaps are too small. The difference between playing a garbage defender and a stout defender just wouldn’t be as pronounced. Sure the games would be closer and more competitive but the skill gap wouldn’t be fairly reflected.

That said, I think it’s already too far in the direction of 100% open makes and I’d like to see it dialed back. Maybe not to real world shooting percentages but definitely less than it is now. I’ve played games of Pro Am where one of my teammates must have never seen a basketball game because they have no idea how to cover someone. In those games I’ve frequently seen guys go 22/27 or something similar from 3. Frankly, that’s too high in my opinion. Even from wide open I’d like to see that scaled down. I think there’s a spot between real world and where they are now that makes sense for online play.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

So because you don’t have the time it takes to become good, 2k should make it easier for you to compete with guys that are good and take the time to become good? That is essentially what you are saying.
Real basketball isn’t just something everyone is good at. NBA players spend their entire lives to become what they are. Some guy that spends an hour a week playing pick up games is never going to compete with someone that’s spent their entire life practicing and working to become the best player they can be.
Time spent playing the game isn’t the be all and end all of being good. Everyone here, that plays online, knows this is the case. We’ve all played against guys that spend their every waking moment playing the game and a lot of the time they are still no better than someone that just picked it up for the first time.
Asking for all of this artificial help seems to suggest a lot.
It all comes down to, I don’t have the time to necessary to become as good as those better than me and I want help so that I can be.
I’ll never be as good as some of the greats at any game for two main reasons.
1. I don’t have the time it takes to become that good, to learn all of the intricacies of the games mechanics.
And 2, maybe I’m just not as skilled.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I can't fault people for lack of time. I'm in the same situation when it comes to the grind.

[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

it's not a fact. the data is out there. no one is hitting 60% of open threes. Very few hit even 50%.

that's the disconnect between sim offline players like me and online players. I get it. Online guys want what they do to have a significant impact on success. So if you hit the timing, the release and it's open you figure you should hit it. Sim guys like me point to the fact that Steph Curry doesn't hit over 50% of his open threes. It's a desire for realism on one side vs. a desire for "stick skills" to be the most important thing on the other.

And I don't know 2k can ever find a balance that pleases everyone.

Well it's obvious there needs to be found a happy medium between the two(sim/arcade)...I don't know how 2k pland on doing that either, but it needs to be done.

[Cowboyfan_19]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Just give my post players the same finishing capabilities near the basket like they give every athletic driving wing in the game. Tired of missing standing layups & hooks with someone playing awful defense on me.

[OfficialQbN]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Just give my post players the same finishing capabilities near the basket like they give every athletic driving wing in the game. Tired of missing standing layups & hooks with someone playing awful defense on me.

You aint lyin...

Its even worse when you have an undersized defender on you and you're missing point blank shots at the rim with a player who is supposed to have superior touch on the basketball.