Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

We’re done.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Lol because I’m calling out your bs answers? You literally didn’t answer any of my questions. You went off on tangents that didn’t address what I asked.

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Lol because I’m calling out your bs answers? You literally didn’t answer any of my questions. You went off on tangents that didn’t address what I asked.

No, because you’re incapable of having an intelligent adult conversation.
As a quick example...you said...

This isn't answering my question. Having better ratings doesn't answer the question of how someone with better ratings feels different. In 2k18, Isaiah Thomas could consistently box out Andre Drummond in 2k18

My response, that you say doesn’t answer your question...

To answer your first question, you get a better boxout rating, which in theory should mean something, however in 18 it barely means anything. If there were, and it appears there is in 19, ways to get off of boxouts such as swim moves, that would help.Also, you get better rebound ratings which increase the rebounding area the player can cover by pressing Y or triangle. I don’t agree with the way it’s currently done, but I have no control over that.

You see, I did, in fact, answer your question and your follow up question. You just want to pretend you didn’t see that so that you can continue to argue.
So, in that case, this conversation with “you” is over.

The BS is entirely yours!!

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

No, because you’re incapable of having an intelligent adult conversation.
As a quick example...you said...

My response, that you say doesn’t answer your question...

You see, I did, in fact, answer your question and your follow up question. You just want to pretend you didn’t see that so that you can continue to argue.
So, in that case, this conversation with “you” is over.

The BS is entirely yours!!

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

No you didn’t. You said a player with better ratings would have better ratings. Outside of covering more ground by pressing Y, there isn’t much difference, and that difference is not at all realistic.

Having ways to get out of a box out is great, but again, how do you differentiate players with those skills? And how else do you represent the intangibles like being able to predict the rebound in a player by player basis?

Let me give you a specific example. Let’s say you have two players, both the same height, weight, wingspan, etc. Every attribute is identical, but player A is better in real life at reading the ball off of the shooter’s hand, and is a better rebounder because of it.

Now how would those two players feel any different in 2k18? The only thing separating them, which is the anticipation of the rebound, is not represented in the game at all.


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[loso_34]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

For the quote thingy, the last [ QOUTE ], you had O before the letter U Hopefully I fixed it properly.

Anyways, meat and potatoes. I'm only bolding parts of my response so it's easier to digest the entire wall of text. That's pretty much it.

Did you see my baseball examples?. Because that is essentially the most crucial part to this whole discussion. If you don't take a moment to factor that in, then the discussion about 'shot meters, feeling in rhythm, badges, floor play art (or art vision; thanks to bcrusie for given me the proper term)' isn't going to jive.

A quick response to the statement, it helps the weaker opponent. But isn't having a simulation experience the want? If the weaker opponent uses Steph Curry like trash and goes 1/15 from 3 point because he/she has the shot meter turned off, that's no longer simulation. That's completely the opposite of simulation.

Secondly, why even have visual scoreboard bug. If you want a true experience, 2k needs to remove the score bug and the competitor can only know the score if he/she pushes up one of the analog stick (or a combination or buttons) so the camera shifts towards the jumbotron of where the actual score is kept tracked within all arenas. Or better, yet keep track of the score in his/her head until the completion of the game.

I think there's a disconnect between the crowd that wants all visual aids off and those that selectively uses them.

You have to look at these visual aids as inherent characteristics of the digital character even though it's definitely not something visible on screen nor in the arena for anyone to see. The scoreboard would be a visual aid. Spike Lee sitting courtside doesn't see a floating 3 point badge near Curry's head, but Spike knows of Curry's court attributes just like everyone else in the arena. Having a virtual digital badge allows the user (essentially a video game coach with a controller in hand) to keep track of the inherent characteristics of his/her team. It doesn't make the coach better, it just allows him/her to keep track. Note: I don't care about badges, so I'm not really at liberty to say if they actually do help or hurt the character.

Re-read my previous post about my baseball examples, then read the following. The shot meter and feel of the shot rhythm is an inherent property of the digital character Steph Curry. Unless you have a brain, heart, body and soul transplant of Steph Curry and each and every single IRL basketball player that you want to emulate in 2k NBA, you're not going to truly get that person's inherent experience.

The shot meter is like the PCI in baseball games. It allows you to "simulate" the exact moment of Steph Curry's shot release or Aaron Judge's plate coverage vision (New York Yankee baseball star). You're putting yourself in the shoes of that digital character. Playing it through the eyes/body awareness/mental capacity/inherent knowledge of the player himself immediately on the spot. You may say, yes that's why you should turn them off in a video game. But that's where the disconnect is. Turning off these visual aids (especially the shot meter) means the user takes himself out of Curry's 'head/self.' Leaving them on allows the user to play in a realistic manner that "simulates" what it's like to be Steph Curry. If the shot meter helps to more closely approximate Steph Curry's shooting success, then that user is in reality "simulating" the Steph Curry basketball experience. If you remove the shot meter and the user completely tanks, then that user isn't "simulating" the Steph Curry experience anymore.

Read Bcruise post, and take important note of one statement, "But on the whole I don't really understand why there's such a stigma against them amongst the "sim" crowd. If they help people like me play the game in a more realistic way,"

Here's how I look at play calling. Calling plays is simulation; using indicators is simulation. What's not hardcore simulation would be to move your character to the wrong spot, or pass it to the wrong person because you had no clue what you were suppose to do. I personally would sometimes call a play just as a decoy when my real play would simply be to send my corner three guy on a cutter to the paint.

That’s where you got it wrong nobody aims a bat irl. You don’t go up there trying to aim the barrel..doing that you’d never catch up to a baseball it’s called hand eye coordination.

Your instincts from years of practise and hand eye coordination place the bat on the ball.

Zone hitting you’re pretty much tracking the ball and aiming nobody does that. Zone hitting is just unnatural.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I'll address awg811 response to my post later when I get a chance... but just quickly.

That’s where you got it wrong nobody aims a bat irl. You don’t go up there trying to aim the barrel..doing that you’d never catch up to a baseball it’s called hand eye coordination.

Your instincts from years of practise and hand eye coordination place the bat on the ball.

Zone hitting you’re pretty much tracking the ball and aiming nobody does that. Zone hitting is just unnatural.

We're getting off track so I'm going to put my response in a spoiler tag so it saves thread page real estate.

Spoiler

EDIT: Technically, you are in fact ultimately aiming the bat to the ball though. The bat is simply an extension of your arms. Try swinging without holding a bat in your hands and you'll never hit a baseball. You have to have a bat in yours hands to hit any type of baseball/ball.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lX_dm39fkfw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes, hand eye coordination is the more appropriate term.

Obviously you're not keeping your forearms steady at the same exact angle every single time while moving your wrist up, down or at various angles to strike the ball. There's no hit power behind. You're never really going to legitimately hit the ball that way in baseball. But there's still a subtle hand/wrist movement as you approach contact.

In video game terms, it's easier to say barrel of the bat because the default PCI indicator in MLB the Show and Pro Yakyuu Spirits looks (or resembles) the barrel of the bat to an extent.

From what I recall, I think there's two ways to hit in MLB the Show: Directional and Zone. Directional was too easy, plus default has always been Zone. I simply play games on default slider, other than bumping up the difficulty level to full blown max, I rarely touch sliders. Note: I also up the pitch speed to full blown max to better simulate the baseball experience. Default pitch speed was too slow, especially when I was pitching.

Directional (as a selectable option) was too easy so I went back to the default Zone.

I'm not sure why you would say zone is unnatural though. As a hitter, you're using your "eyes" to follow the ball, then using your upper body/shoulder/forearms/hip rotation/ "hands" to make contact with the ball. Instead of looking at the PCI as your "arms" (or whatever appropriate term it officially should be), let's just call it simulating your "eyes." Video game zone hitting is supposedly more precise. Plus it's more challenging than directional.

[triplechin]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Wide open shots shouldnt be auto makes and contested shots shouldnt be auto misses. If that was the case then there's no point using KD or Curry when anyone can make an open shot.

Ratings, shot quality, and timing should all come into effect. Players miss 3 open shots in a row ALL THE TIME. It happens. Part of the skill of the game is dealing with those bad streaks and off nights. Do you try to pound the paint, run some pick and roll, or take another 3 and hope it hits? That thinking is part of the skill as well.

A contested 3 with Curry is better than an open 3 with Dwight howard. The key for me as a ProAM player is getting the percentages to a realistic-ish level so more bball strategy, both during the game and when picking builds, is incorporated. I dont want a guy with a 99 3pt rating, who gets a 20% boost, then another 20% boost from a stupid dimer, to make 8/9 from the hash. That makes the game boring af

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Wide open shots shouldnt be auto makes and contested shots shouldnt be auto misses. If that was the case then there's no point using KD or Curry when anyone can make an open shot.

Ratings, shot quality, and timing should all come into effect. Players miss 3 open shots in a row ALL THE TIME. It happens. Part of the skill of the game is dealing with those bad streaks and off nights. Do you try to pound the paint, run some pick and roll, or take another 3 and hope it hits? That thinking is part of the skill as well.

A contested 3 with Curry is better than an open 3 with Dwight howard. The key for me as a ProAM player is getting the percentages to a realistic-ish level so more bball strategy, both during the game and when picking builds, is incorporated. I dont want a guy with a 99 3pt rating, who gets a 20% boost, then another 20% boost from a stupid dimer, to make 8/9 from the hash. That makes the game boring af

Imaging being a center. I have had have where I only shot twice, because I'm on a team of greedy 3PT shooters.

[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Wide open shots shouldnt be auto makes and contested shots shouldnt be auto misses. If that was the case then there's no point using KD or Curry when anyone can make an open shot.

Ratings, shot quality, and timing should all come into effect. Players miss 3 open shots in a row ALL THE TIME. It happens. Part of the skill of the game is dealing with those bad streaks and off nights. Do you try to pound the paint, run some pick and roll, or take another 3 and hope it hits? That thinking is part of the skill as well.

A contested 3 with Curry is better than an open 3 with Dwight howard. The key for me as a ProAM player is getting the percentages to a realistic-ish level so more bball strategy, both during the game and when picking builds, is incorporated. I dont want a guy with a 99 3pt rating, who gets a 20% boost, then another 20% boost from a stupid dimer, to make 8/9 from the hash. That makes the game boring af

Good points. I like the change they've made with the shot contest system tbh. Where as a defender you have to actively get a hand up in time. If a guy already starts his shot and then you contest late (like after he's in the air), it'll count as lightly contested. Just standing in front of a guy won't cut anymore. You have to get a hand up in time for a better shot contest now. I think this is actually a nice touch, cuz it kinda replicates how good shooters can still hit shots with a guy in front of them and a slight hand in their face. It allows good shooters and especially guys that can hit certain contested shots at high % to be able to expose vague defense.

[triplechin]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Good points. I like the change they've made with the shot contest system tbh. Where as a defender you have to actively get a hand up in time. If a guy already starts his shot and then you contest late (like after he's in the air), it'll count as lightly contested. Just standing in front of a guy won't cut anymore. You have to get a hand up in time for a better shot contest now. I think this is actually a nice touch, cuz it kinda replicates how good shooters can still hit shots with a guy in front of them and a slight hand in their face. It allows good shooters and especially guys that can hit certain contested shots at high % to be able to expose vague defense.

Yup this was def needed. It was infuriating what counted as contest last year. If this works as well as it seems it will, then we just need the percentages to come to realistic-ish numbers, I think we get huge improvements to ProAM. Im cool with a little bit higher percentages since they are short quarters and it's a video game, but I hate all these sharps going above 60% from the hash. The key to ProAM is entertaining bball in a realistic manner, and balance. It is not fun if you grinded a defending shot creator and cant hit a shot, while pure sharps can pull from the hash, and drive and dunk with glitched animations and way too much speed. Same with 7'3 centers being too fast, etc