#StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

[howardphillips214]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

I feel like the steals in the passing lanes should be toned down a bit, but on ball steals are good. If you time it right you can get the steal....if you don't you can get blown by or get the reach-in foul

I know its frustrating for ballhandlers, but thats the whole point of defense. To frustrate and annoy the offensive player. The goal is to stop him from doing what he wants to do.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iKKbItKSPfs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

LMFAO if only it were that easy.

Playing good defense doesn't mean you can stop everything they're trying to do, it's limiting their options by what they LIKE to do.

If I'm guarding a shooter with the ball i would crowd him and discourage a 3 ball and live with it if he drives passed and takes his chances at the hoop. I didn't STOP him, i limited his choices and learn to live with the outcome. If help defense wasn't there and he scores that's a good defensive possession.

Whereas if I'm guarding a finisher i will play off to TRY and stop the drive and force him to shoot.

The problem with these concepts are pick and rolls. Do you go under? Over? Switch?

With body up defense and zero ability to drive you're limiting your game to ONLY shooting perimeter shots. The NBA isn't a predominantly shooting league because everyone guarding the perimeter is Kawhi, it's simply because of math. 3 is more than 2. And as long as you have shooters (not everyone in the nba can shoot either unlike 2k) you can space the floor and run good actions to confuse the defense and win games.

In no world was Jordan/kobe/shaq or any other superstar with multiple ways to attack the defense "stopped". Instead they may have been limited by the defense knowing their tendencies and using TEAM defense to win. "frustrating" the offense isn't getting in their jersey and mugging them 94 feet like it is in this game. In real life you'd see so many defensive breakdowns if the NBA played defense like they do in 2k.

[EarvGotti]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

LMFAO if only it were that easy.

Playing good defense doesn't mean you can stop everything they're trying to do, it's limiting their options by what they LIKE to do.

If I'm guarding a shooter with the ball i would crowd him and discourage a 3 ball and live with it if he drives passed and takes his chances at the hoop. I didn't STOP him, i limited his choices and learn to live with the outcome. If help defense wasn't there and he scores that's a good defensive possession.

Whereas if I'm guarding a finisher i will play off to TRY and stop the drive and force him to shoot.

The problem with these concepts are pick and rolls. Do you go under? Over? Switch?

With body up defense and zero ability to drive you're limiting your game to ONLY shooting perimeter shots. The NBA isn't a predominantly shooting league because everyone guarding the perimeter is Kawhi, it's simply because of math. 3 is more than 2. And as long as you have shooters (not everyone in the nba can shoot either unlike 2k) you can space the floor and run good actions to confuse the defense and win games.

In no world was Jordan/kobe/shaq or any other superstar with multiple ways to attack the defense "stopped". Instead they may have been limited by the defense knowing their tendencies and using TEAM defense to win. "frustrating" the offense isn't getting in their jersey and mugging them 94 feet like it is in this game. In real life you'd see so many defensive breakdowns if the NBA played defense like they do in 2k.

While i agree with some of your point, i disagree about what you said in regards to frustrating the offense. MJ and Pippen made a living by being ACTIVE defenders. Meaning they were always getting a hand on the ball, whether it was in the passing lanes or on the ball swiping for steals.

The 90's Bulls were one of the best defensive teams in NBA history and MJ & Pippen were "attacking" type of defenders. This is why they got so many fast break points and transition buckets. You can't expect to sit back and let the offense do whatever they want and for them to just miss shots.

[lilteapot]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

lmao been addressed my ***. I just had a PNO game where my opponent was the Lakers and did not score a single field goal on me that was not steal spam instigated. 37 points and 30 of them were probably steamspam fast breaks. It was downright sad how my players simply could not get the ball past halfcourt 50% of the the time. That said, I still won by 10 playing sim ball and hacking Rondo/Ball/Pope/McGee/LeBron is almost a guarantee to miss 1 or 2 free throws. Stretched out the 2nd quarter for a long time with steal fouls (gotta be careful not to intentionally foul if possible) Guy messaged me and told me I was annoying...I don't understand what emotional pitch these people that stealspam every defensive play are expecting to be tossed back their way. What need is there to pressure my inbounders with 4:50 left in the 1st quarter? What are you doing lunging at every pass? Why is it so brainlessly successful? This guy probably caused 5-6 backcourt violations on me. It's hilarious after all these years that they can't implement realistic backcourt violations btw. In real life the referee would not call anything on a scramble play, but in 2K there is no such thing as a scramble play when it comes to the halfcourt line. He had 13 steals and 16 offensive rebounds in a 20 minute game. I had 16 turnovers. I've been playing this series for 20 years. What are we doing here? I used to play 2K1/2K2 online on Dreamcast and it was a far more simulation experience than this.

I thought it was just me, I never understand those backcourt violation calls. The guy reaches for the ball, knocks it out, we both go for the ball, and as the offensive player I'm punished for hustling to get the ball back. I shouldn't get a turnover if it's a loose ball.

[howardphillips214]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

While i agree with some of your point, i disagree about what you said in regards to frustrating the offense. MJ and Pippen made a living by being ACTIVE defenders. Meaning they were always getting a hand on the ball, whether it was in the passing lanes or on the ball swiping for steals.

The 90's Bulls were one of the best defensive teams in NBA history and MJ & Pippen were "attacking" type of defenders. This is why they got so many fast break points and transition buckets. You can't expect to sit back and let the offense do whatever they want and for them to just miss shots.

Jordan did a whole series of basketball tutorials. In his first video he talks about defenive philosophies. He starts by talking about the defense's job is to take away options. He doesn't say "i took such and such out the game entirely" which is what i gathered from your post. Sure, creating turn overs is a part of it. But Jordan nor pippen were averaging 6-10 steals a game. That's not good defense, that's flawed game mechanics.

[jfsolo]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

I'd be curious to hear some offline opinions on steals this year. I've personally really liked having the ability to properly jump a passing lane along the perimeter. I'm usually lucky to pull it off once or twice a game against the CPU but it feels natural and clean. I hated those moments in 2K18 when I'd read a passing lane perfectly only for the ball to float through my body (or for my player to randomly swipe in the opposite direction of the ball).

In contrast, playing against a CPU player like Jason Kidd on All-Star has been a nightmare. There are times where I just want to get to the first circle on my play art but can't do so because I'm too busy getting muscled and successfully swiped at by Kidd (or Charlie Ward). There have been a lot of times where I felt like my only options, as Chauncey Billups, was to pass and get rid of the ball as soon as possible to prevent randomly having the rock poked away.

I'm a little more optimistic about the user's defensive ability this year though. I've had a difficult time over the years forcing computer turnovers. It seems possible this year, and that's nice. I recognize the issue with the steal mechanic but I also don't want to be punished each time I press the steal button when the ball appears available. A lot of the lack of CPU turnovers last year came from training myself to never, ever press the steal button because the results seemed randomly and weighted toward reach-in fouls no matter what.

Sometimes I wonder how much online and human vs. human patches are negatively affecting the offline CPU experience.

You don't have to wonder. Although you can ameliorate some things with sliders, design, tuning/balancing for H2H play has put a ceiling on how realistic, i.e. how well the game mimics real life play, all sports game are.

To a certain extent User agency has an inverse relationship with authenticity.

During the last sim nation show the panel(Kushmir was there) were kicking around ideas about how to deal with the steal spam meta, and after one suggestion Czar mentioned that tuning something a certain way would make the game feel slow, and you could tell that although doing so would make the game more realistic, it's not something that would happen because it would interfere with User agency and most people would flip out.

[Kushmir]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

To a certain extent User agency has an inverse relationship with authenticity.

During the last sim nation show the panel(Kushmir was there) were kicking around ideas about how to deal with the steal spam meta, and after one suggestion Czar mentioned that tuning something a certain way would make the game feel slow, and you could tell that although doing so would make the game more realistic, it's not something that would happen because it would interfere with User agency and most people would flip out.

It suuuuuuuuuure does. Too much user agency is why steals are where they are and why contests were too strong for years.

Czar basically said the control guys would flip out if you give them a slow swipe that didn't respond instantly to their button press--he's right too. IMO they should take the simpler approach and go with a steal window and the lower your rating the smaller portion of that window you get.

You miss your steal? Its a foul or you lunge out of position. Eliminate the neutral outcomes and we're gold IMO.

[EarvGotti]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

Jordan did a whole series of basketball tutorials. In his first video he talks about defenive philosophies. He starts by talking about the defense's job is to take away options. He doesn't say "i took such and such out the game entirely" which is what i gathered from your post. Sure, creating turn overs is a part of it. But Jordan nor pippen were averaging 6-10 steals a game. That's not good defense, that's flawed game mechanics.

Again, if the ballhander is giving up 6-10 on ball steals per game then thats HIS fault. The protect ball mechanic is there for a reason.

Also keeping the ball away from the best defender should be part of the offensive plan. When teams played Kawhi, they would often attack with someone that Kawhi WASN'T guarding so that Kawhi was no where close to the ball.

What i'm saying is that the offensive player has to be more accountable for his actions and decisions. We have to give defense the ability to shine otherwise we'll end up with 2K18 again where defense was invisible. If the user is making bad decisions on both offense and defense then i agree that they should be punished.

If a guy is not protecting the ball against my defenders and making bad passes then yes, he deserves to have 15 turnovers in a game. It's just amazing to me that after a game like 2K18 you guys actually want LESS defense smh.

[Kushmir]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

Again, if the ballhander is giving up 6-10 on ball steals per game then thats HIS fault. The protect ball mechanic is there for a reason.

I really, really wish that were true, but its not.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r-_itAgqa78" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

CP3, Curry and Lebron override it too (i've even seen Livingston do it)--you'll never guess who most people use online.....

I LOVE defense....and I agree with your sentiment re: needing a defensive overhaul after 2K18 but bad mechanics are bad mechanics...they cause more problems than they fix. You don't trade one horrible hip riding mechanic for one really bad steal system. FACT: The SAME PEOPLE will abuse both. Cheesers gravitate to imbalanced aspects of gameplay.

[EarvGotti]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

I really, really wish that were true, but its not.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r-_itAgqa78" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

CP3, Curry and Lebron override it too (i've even seen Livingston do it)--you'll never guess who most people use online.....

I LOVE defense....and I agree with your sentiment re: needing a defensive overhaul after 2K18 but bad mechanics are bad mechanics...they cause more problems than they fix. You don't trade one horrible hip riding mechanic for one really bad steal system. FACT: The SAME PEOPLE will abuse both. Cheesers gravitate to imbalanced aspects of gameplay.

Czar said that can happen but the % of it happening is very low. Also, isn't Ben Simmons ball control rating in the mid 80's? Like 86? That's not very high.

I play My Team bro....which is as cheesy as it can get. I hardly ever get the ball stripped from me on ball. Maybe once or twice in 10 games. I use protect ball and give myself space to dribble. I do agree that steals in the passing lanes should be toned down...but on ball is fine man. Handling the ball feels dangerous and it should feel dangerous.

[Nwordbelike]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

Czar said that can happen but the % of it happening is very low. Also, isn't Ben Simmons ball control rating in the mid 80's? Like 86? That's not very high.

I play My Team bro....which is as cheesy as it can get. I hardly ever get the ball stripped from me on ball. Maybe once or twice in 10 games. I use protect ball and give myself space to dribble. I do agree that steals in the passing lanes should be toned down...but on ball is fine man. Handling the ball feels dangerous and it should feel dangerous.

86 not very high? Come on now

[EarvGotti]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

86 not very high? Come on now

It's not very high. Just because someone can "speedboost" in this game, it doesn't mean they are a good ballhandler. If a good defender is guarding you, they can still rip you if you don't "control" the ball. Don't stand in front of a good defender for too long.

I really don't wanna see the defense in this game ruined because ppl complain and can't adjust their playstyle.

[Nwordbelike]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

It's not very high. Just because someone can "speedboost" in this game, it doesn't mean they are a good ballhandler. If a good defender is guarding you, they can still rip you if you don't "control" the ball. Don't stand in front of a good defender for too long.

I really don't wanna see the defense in this game ruined because ppl complain and can't adjust their playstyle.

I dont know why you talking bout speedboost n stuff, 86 is just an estimation of his handling control and that's still pretty high
and you just pretending to know my playstyle Please Stop with the assumptions




Dribble spammers need to get stripped but bad defenders aka steal spammers need to get punished too

[shayellis]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xx5OFI3IM3I" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Heres an example of a few problems,

1. No consequence for attempting to steal and being out of position on defense
2. The slow layup that almost feels tethered to a block.This happens all the time, where the defender who is beat and facing the wrong way, can go from 0-100 to fly for a clean perfect block while I have to do a kindergarten slow layup.

People will ask why do you want to nerf defense, but don't seem to realize that not all defense is good or realistic defense.

[ph33]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

I play with a defensive player and even I can admit it's cheese.

I play with a sharpshooter that casually dropped 81 yesterday on a bunch of shots that said "Open" and we laughed because of how absurd it was.

It's ok to acknowledge there are flaws in the game. Nobody is saying to completely nerf or buff anything doing a 180. "Adjust for (Insert flawed mechanic)" is just a band-aid for bad gameplay.

[Thrustie]

Re: #StealSpam has changed the 2K Meta

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xx5OFI3IM3I" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Heres an example of a few problems,

1. No consequence for attempting to steal and being out of position on defense
2. The slow layup that almost feels tethered to a block.This happens all the time, where the defender who is beat and facing the wrong way, can go from 0-100 to fly for a clean perfect block while I have to do a kindergarten slow layup.

People will ask why do you want to nerf defense, but don't seem to realize that not all defense is good or realistic defense.

This video is my 2K existence.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FKJNDD0jfmI" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>